Allow OMC restrictor in AX class to be resized ?

[D_Allen_III]

Maybe we do need the new engine to continue on into the future. Future being 10, 20, 30 years from now. As for the stability of stock outboard after going through that engine change, it looks very grim. My honest opinion is that after the sidewinder change has not necessarily forced (because everyone has the option of buying the new engine) but cut our numbers down (that's what happens when we change engines in a class), we will be left with a title series style of racing. The die-hards will buy the engines and we will still have people racing but our racing will look and feel much different.

Most clubs as you know Dean, Mike, everyone else who puts on a race, are so close to being in the red that losing even 15 entries a weekend because of the changes, makes it impossible to put on the race regularly. Raise entries fees to get the money back, perhaps, but I'm willing to go on the record that in ten years stock outboard will basically be a title series style of racing. Series racing isn't exactly the best promotional tool to use when you are trying to get a new guy in the area to race, especially for 21 minutes of water time. Maybe you like it, maybe you don't but I'm almost certain, while staring into my crystal ball that local racing will be all but eliminated.

Seeing the number of entries at Grass Lake last weekend was a real reality check and one of the most depressing scenes I've seen in boat racing in regards to our future. I guess like they say, the future is now.

[Richard Hearn]

Here is a suggestion to consider...

Pick a race next year (Augusta, MI?) and run a different style event (call it "Race of Tomorrow"). Steal from Lockhaven where they combined the BMR and BSR and the BMR and 25R, but scored them separately.

Classes:
1. JR / JH
2. AR / AH (Combine both AX, AS, FA in the same heat)
3. BR / BH (Combine both AM, BM, BS, 25M, 25S, and 20 in the same heat)
4. CR / CH (Combine CM and CS in the same heat)
5. DR / DH (Combine DS, DM, FE in the same heat)

Run through the schedule twice each day (40 heats). Score each class independently even though they ran in the same heat together.

I believe that you will find that there will be a full field of racing, folks will have a blast running with lots of boats, spectators will like the racing with lots of boats, you will get more racing in for the weekend, and it will only be 6.5 hrs of racing. 9:30am - 4:00pm.

Then, let's talk about parity of motors... All this talk about parity of motors in dying classes (dying sport) seems like talking about who gets the last can of Campbells soup after nuclear fallout...

Just trying to identify solutions rather than point out problems.

[Big Don]

How long is a $1,500 investment supposed to last....

Sorry Dean maybe a poor choice of words... but a 1500.00 invistment should last a lifetime or until you need to cash out and spend your profits...

Just giving you crap....

[BP125V]

I like it

Richard,

I was thinking along the same lines for our Rochelle race next year. I think ideas like this need to be implented at the club level first and then when proven the idea will be spread. It is difficult to try to accomodate every club / region situation when making plans for engine/class changes at the national level, there is just too much data to sift through. Get it working SOMEWHERE and then it will spread.

This Fall and Winter while we are discussing classes and engines, I strongly suggest that each and every club review their race financials (like Dean did with Grass Lake) and STRESS to our current membership that it is critical for racers to support their own club's races. I would bet that if our existing membership had done a better job of this this past year the tone and nature of this thread would be very different right now. Trying to look at the bright side - maybe it is good things turned out the way they did as it is or should be opening everyone's eyes and forcing some much needed change.

Bill

PS generally speaking, given the lack of race support from current members, I would be trying to figure out how to market the sport to "new names" as well.

[Big Don]

Why do we have the AX classes?

Now we created another class in APBA for the Merc to race in, shortly after that the J category sprung up (you want to talk about how much it costs to put on a race, now we have to fork out another $100 to the sanction fees to include another category (J) to put on a race...stupid).

Mike don't forget our own SORC caused this by going to the APBA board and asking them to take it from us. We only have ourselves to blame.

[B1PRORACER]

I remember all these SAME arguments when all of those KG4 engines were obsolited in favor of the OMC A in 1984. I was left with NOTHING to race just like several people have said that they are faced with now. Want to know what happened? I quit racing! After a few years of retirement, I came back to race pro hydros. Last year we (my son & I) were messing around with an OMC engine and could never get it going right. My solution was to get a NEW Mercury engine from APBA and switch the gearfoot from our OMC over to the Mercury. It was simple and easy. The engine was instantly competitive and every part was available if needed. Remember, it isn't ILLEGAL to race the OMC against the Mercury- it just isn't quite as fast. It would be okay for a kid just starting out. Eventually that kid would develope the skill and desire to be competitive and hopefully you have been saving some money to buy a Mercury.
Perhaps the MOD division can create a new class called ASMH with all the same rules as todays ASH class has? This would create the largest class in the MOD category overnight!

[Dave M]

Format

Here is a suggestion to consider...

Pick a race next year (Augusta, MI?) and run a different style event (call it "Race of Tomorrow"). Steal from Lockhaven where they combined the BMR and BSR and the BMR and 25R, but scored them separately.

Classes:
1. JR / JH
2. AR / AH (Combine both AX, AS, FA in the same heat)
3. BR / BH (Combine both AM, BM, BS, 25M, 25S, and 20 in the same heat)
4. CR / CH (Combine CM and CS in the same heat)
5. DR / DH (Combine DS, DM, FE in the same heat)

Run through the schedule twice each day (40 heats). Score each class independently even though they ran in the same heat together.

I believe that you will find that there will be a full field of racing, folks will have a blast running with lots of boats, spectators will like the racing with lots of boats, you will get more racing in for the weekend, and it will only be 6.5 hrs of racing. 9:30am - 4:00pm.

Then, let's talk about parity of motors... All this talk about parity of motors in dying classes (dying sport) seems like talking about who gets the last can of Campbells soup after nuclear fallout...

Just trying to identify solutions rather than point out problems.

How this thread got so far away from the size of the restrictor plate should be your fist sign that boat racing is in trouble.

Richard, your format is already currently being used, and it works, it is not a novel idea, it is simply common sense.

I think a new category should be created in APBA. Try only new engines, and make certain all rigs meet th eminimum spent requirement of 8K. If they can't prove they spent that much, turn them away. Send them over to Mod. Apparently it is the dumping grounds. Whatever, if it grows grass roots racing, then so be it. I will bet you money that the new category won't survive two years and be self sustaining.

Boat Racing in general is in dire need of help , and fresh blood. The most easy way i can think of to gain new members is to make it cheap enough for a lot of middle class people. Remember, there are a lot of options out there. They still want to have the jet ski and the fishing boat for off weekends. Today, most middle class are able to do both. Guess who wins.

How can we grow the sport immediately ? Offer turn key rigs with financing. Nobody is going to plop down 10K for Palmquists DSH rig without being first active in the sport. 10K is a lot of cash. Think about what percent of your incopme that woul dbe for a year. Think about the average income. The math is not lying.

If someone can buy a brand new Tahotsu powered DSH for say $7500.00 and go 80 MPH you have the Jet Skis beat. Who cares if they use it lake racing. It can and will build interest. Suddenly you have race boats being used like the Jet Skis..... for pleasure. Don't preach to me about saftey of this, yadda yadda. Every individual is responsible for his/her own saftey. When I say turn key, it means lifejacket, helmet, and if you want, Kevlar sleeve and pants.

When someone can do this for the sport, it will grow. But until you can offer financing, I think history has proved the sport will not survive with simply intorducing new engines that cost a lot more than what is currently running. When did the sport see a decent growth in racing memberhips ? Of those memberships that any Joe Blow off the street can buy, how many were participating memebrships cometing in racing ? When has that grown measurably in the last 20 years ? I am serious, I don't know if it ever has, someone might know.

[Big Don]

Talk about a high jacked thread...

Just throwing out some numbers and Dana will have a more accurate statement but roughly 70% of racers have raced less than 6 races this year in the stock category so far this year.

Now I know that is skewed slightly because someone may have raced a class they don’t normally race but…

Or look at it this way…or roughly 195 racers have more than 6 races….that’s really only about 150 actual racers because of racing multiple classes. 10 classes (didn’t count DSR sorry) 15 regions…

We wonder why we need to put multiple categories on our sanctions. We wonder why we have people running the same engine in multiple classes… we wonder why our day is so long. We have to race everything to get the entries to financially support the race.

Just trying to show how broke our system really is. I know a lot of you know this already. The numbers are devastating…

I know I’m coming across as the glass is half empty but we had better realize that it’s not half empty and that it’s lower than that.

[RuthieRae]

See you in Detroit

but there is a bigger problem in J class........the Mercs clearly smoke the OMC's..............

solution.............unplug the Merc ...............

PS: after watching and helping all year long another couple teammates (Daniel in AX and Ryan in J), it was decided that if we want to be competitive in AX and J...............gotta get a Merc and I have gone that route............

PS: seems that if we want the J class to be a "learning class", maybe only one motor should be allowed, be it the Merc or OMC........

Well the 60J is still legal in JH/JR, any takers? LOL....um I believe AXH and AXR are also a learning class..........which is why there is no HOC for either class. Every year the speed issues get brought up at the meeting and they keep saying they need data. GO GET THE DATA.

AXH and AXR were meant to be a transitional class and as I stated to the J committe last year, this is not the case nor is it a learning class....it is dog eat dog now and things need to be changed including HOC. These kids and adults are driving just as hard as they would in the big dog classes. The intent of the class as been thrown out the window. It is now a front runner. Jh/jr should not in my opinion be racing for HOC points, that IS a learning class and too many times young kids get the best of the best equipment from the get go and never ever learn how to drive, start or mill with the pack and move up to another class and cause harm and concern. J needs to be about education, not speed. PS, when I ran j I got my butt handed to me on a silver platter by the OMC's, but I still had fun, ran my little 60j and learned. Just as my kids did, they ran the OMC agains the fast merc's the first two years of J and then we re-evaluated and bought a merc once they had figured out how to drive. And, they still have a lot of learning to do. PS, for those who weren't at the nationals.....Zach H took second in the AXH final in the first heat, with an OMC....and I believe he finished 3rd overall (not sure) with that OMC, behind Abby and Ashley who are both very fast merc's....so where do you draw the line? Make the restrictor plate bigger only for the slower omc's? What about the fast OMC's? Then they will be killing the Merc's and you are now back to square one in a class that was made available so the Merc's had somewhere to be competitive among other things. I'm not sure what the answer is, but with out some compelling data, I don't see the j committee changing anything.

We are done with the J classes after Yelm, but I will still be in Detroit at the J meeting just to see where this all goes this year?????

[Boomtap15F]

I used to think my OMC was fast until my last race against the mercs, that was before they were plugged. I dunno what you guys are seeing up north i'm not, i make virtually no races up there... but when the mercs come down to florida they seem to be faster every year. They are now untouchable leaving me no choice but to exit the class to save money for mill time. But i agree that there is also not much speed difference between A and AXS now except you notice a little punch in the turn. I think the entire class ought to be slowed to make way for it's true intention which is to be a jumper class from J to A.

It is actually the most competitive class on the water right now in stock in my opinion. We always put on good shows, we always have the highest turnout in small racing events down here and i don't have to put 50 pounds of lead in the boat to run it

[reed28n]

Never forget!

Mike don't forget our own SORC caused this by going to the APBA board and asking them to take it from us. We only have ourselves to blame.

It is time to refelct on our past and make a plan to move forward. I heard the same logic when we looked to restucture some of the classes. I was told that the SORC asked for the Mercury and we should keep it in A.

To me that was looking back and attaching decisions to the SORC as if it is one person over the course of many years. The truth of the matter is that the SORC is an elected group from our membership and by the membership. Few people on this committee can seperate "for the good of the sport and APBA as a whole" and "what is good for one's self". The SORC of the past had different issues than the issues that face the future SORCs. If changing directions is for the good of the whole than it must be done.

To really affect change and to really have follow through with a comprehensive plan, we need fewer casual players in the decision making process. We need real data to balance "feelings" of what we see and everyone's individual love of the sport. A successful business make decisions based on hard facts kept on up to the minute scorecards and a gut instinct on trends that will effect future growth. Meetings are brainstorming sessions that produce a road map to the future of that business. Without leadership and a clear consistent message APBA will be nothing more than a club.

PS - no one quit racing this year because the SORC approved more motor options.

[Team 12R]

totally agree

Well the 60J is still legal in JH/JR, any takers? LOL....um I believe AXH and AXR are also a learning class..........which is why there is no HOC for either class. Every year the speed issues get brought up at the meeting and they keep saying they need data. GO GET THE DATA.

AXH and AXR were meant to be a transitional class and as I stated to the J committe last year, this is not the case nor is it a learning class....it is dog eat dog now and things need to be changed including HOC. These kids and adults are driving just as hard as they would in the big dog classes. The intent of the class as been thrown out the window. It is now a front runner. Jh/jr should not in my opinion be racing for HOC points, that IS a learning class and too many times young kids get the best of the best equipment from the get go and never ever learn how to drive, start or mill with the pack and move up to another class and cause harm and concern. J needs to be about education, not speed. PS, when I ran j I got my butt handed to me on a silver platter by the OMC's, but I still had fun, ran my little 60j and learned. Just as my kids did, they ran the OMC agains the fast merc's the first two years of J and then we re-evaluated and bought a merc once they had figured out how to drive. And, they still have a lot of learning to do. PS, for those who weren't at the nationals.....Zach H took second in the AXH final in the first heat, with an OMC....and I believe he finished 3rd overall (not sure) with that OMC, behind Abby and Ashley who are both very fast merc's....so where do you draw the line? Make the restrictor plate bigger only for the slower omc's? What about the fast OMC's? Then they will be killing the Merc's and you are now back to square one in a class that was made available so the Merc's had somewhere to be competitive among other things. I'm not sure what the answer is, but with out some compelling data, I don't see the j committee changing anything.

We are done with the J classes after Yelm, but I will still be in Detroit at the J meeting just to see where this all goes this year?????

i won't have a dog in this fight for another couple years. i however agree with sheryl 100% on this topic. keep the j class as it is... it works.

[Tomtall]

Mercury in "A"

I agree. Keep the Mercury in "A". Peter Laurer ran a Mercury at Big Rapids in ASR and did VERY well against the OMC of the countries fastest ASR's. We had our OMC compete in AXSH all weekend against the Mercurys (and it is no sloutch running most the weekend out front in ASH) and in AXSH it was half a lap down after one lap.Do as you want in AXS but don't blow smoke up my A** saying their is parity in AXS class between the Merc. and OMC. Their is not and that is provin weekend after weekend acroos the country in this class. I just wanted to take this poll to see how it shook out and their were twice as many that agree that this is the case.

[reed28n]

Smoke

I agree. Keep the Mercury in "A". Peter Laurer ran a Mercury at Big Rapids in ASR and did VERY well against the OMC of the countries fastest ASR's. We had our OMC compete in AXSH all weekend against the Mercurys (and it is no sloutch running most the weekend out front in ASH) and in AXSH it was half a lap down after one lap.Do as you want in AXS but don't blow smoke up my A** saying their is parity in AXS class between the Merc. and OMC. Their is not and that is provin weekend after weekend acroos the country in this class. I just wanted to take this poll to see how it shook out and their were twice as many that agree that this is the case.

Then lets go ahead and use that logic to pare down the number of classes. I have seen 20SSH's run with CSH, 25SSR with CSR, BMH with CMH, DMH with DSH, runabout the same.

Everything in the same speed range races together done.

No parity committee no nuthin just run them and let it all sort out.

GAS PRO do CC's only

[mercguy]

i won't have a dog in this fight for another couple years. i however agree with sheryl 100% on this topic. keep the j class as it is... it works.

well, we all you that you would agree with ANYTHING Sheryl says!!!

back to the subject though..............how many J races (or even AX) races have you actually watched this year?? The Merc dominates!!! Either lower the height for the Merc or change the restrictor size for the OMC..............seems those would be the easiest changes (besides unplugging the Merc)...........yes, we will be changing over to a Merc for those classes next year, but there are TONS of others that cannot afford that option and own OMC's and they deserve the right to be competitive also!!!!!!!!