Mod Proposals for National Meeting...........

[mercguy]

I have 2 of the pointy rear load Yamatos, both measure the same as above

My vertical split Yamato measures 1.85 for R and 1.40 for S

Out into the snow and I'll be back with the measurements of a "small case" Konig

Sam, is this the "hatchet" Yamato?

[sam]

There are 2 Yamato hatchets, early vertical split and later horizontal split.

Each came in a number of ratios, as did the previous pointy rear load Yamato alky unit.

I think generally, the ratios run from 1:1 (direct) to 12:15 (20% reduction) on the Yamatos, Konigs & Rossis

An alky guy can probably fill in any ratio I forgot and comment on how rare it might be for each style unit

[Joe J]

Sam:

I have stayed away from this discussion, since I do not have any mod equipment.

But to answer your questions, there are 11:17, 11:16, 11:15, 12:15, 12:14 ( I think ) 14:15, and 1:1 gearcases available today from Pro equipment builders.

All of the above units are readily available from either Steve Litzell or Rex Hall. I do not have any R & S dimensions, as there are no min's in the Pro division.

Joe Johnson

There are 2 Yamato hatchets, early vertical split and later horizontal split.

Each came in a number of ratios, as did the previous pointy rear load Yamato alky unit.

I think generally, the ratios run from 1:1 (direct) to 12:15 (20% reduction) on the Yamatos, Konigs & Rossis

An alky guy can probably fill in any ratio I forgot and comment on how rare it might be for each style unit

[brian]

As a 750cc Mod driver and a D stock Driver I will never vote to lift the restrictions on the Tohatsu. It and the stock debate around it has all but killed the class in the mid-west. Now I know classes go through cycles but we shafted David Scott on this issue and wasted apba money with all of the re-manufactured efforts.

I like the bass folks and it may be the D Stock motor of the future. But early signs it has killed the 44xs class in the mid-west. 5 rigs for sale right now. Where are they going to you ask? MOD and other family issues. The Tohatsu/ D Stock market is small and it is hard to get parts and motors for the Tohatsu. Try to get a backup bass foot. Bass's margin is so low they can not buy 20 motors and have them by spring. (Maybe Bass can get a Government bailout too!!!!)

I my opinion more were hurt than we helped on this Tohatsu issue to this point. Scott, Harrington, the xs gear makers, the guys making the xs towers and all of the other xs suppliers now have no market. So in shout 6 people who make boat racing parts were hurt to give the bass folks a product with a really small margin and long production times. I can build you and or find 10 44xs today, 3 or 4 of them have won the nationals. A
ll of these motors would be less than a new bass.


750R had 37 drives and 750H had 52 drives Stock should make a stock class for the Tohatsu and make the 44xs the sole motor in D stock. Make all of the arguments you want about no more classes needed or Stock cant support 2 classes that run about the same speeds (I just stopped laughing). A club can always choose what it wants to offer. Let the market decide. You can start racing 44xs for 5k with a boat today!!!!! Can you get a Tohatsu by spring time?

Crazy long post, but I will defend the 750 class until there is a shortage of parts or no drivers.

[Dave M]

D Mod

I would not have a problem with the Tahatsu being a legal D Mod engine in factory stock form. I really don't think it could compete with the decent D Mods (750CC) in the Midwest or anywhere for that matter. But it would give folks in the Midwest whom have one an option to race it I guess.

It has always been a Merc class, and always will be. But with the situation in obtaining good engines, and parts to make a Merc go fast in Modified, we might want to consider allowing different engines in that are more available to the general public.

By the way, any one of those five 44XS stock engines for sale, would make a GREAT 750CC Mod engine. They are a good foundation upon which to build a racing mod engine.

[mercguy]

As a 750cc Mod driver and a D stock Driver I will never vote to lift the restrictions on the Tohatsu. It and the stock debate around it has all but killed the class in the mid-west. Now I know classes go through cycles but we shafted David Scott on this issue and wasted apba money with all of the re-manufactured efforts.

I like the bass folks and it may be the D Stock motor of the future. But early signs it has killed the 44xs class in the mid-west. . 5 rigs for sale right now. Where are they going to you ask? MOD and other family issues. The Tohatsu/ D Stock market is small and it is hard to get parts and motors for the Tohatsu. Try to get a backup bass foot. Bass's margin is so low they can not buy 20 motors and have them by spring. (Maybe Bass can get a Government bailout too!!!!)

I my opinion more were hurt than we helped on this Tohatsu issue to this point. Scott, Harrington, the xs gear makers, the guys making the xs towers and all of the other xs suppliers now have no market. So in shout 6 people who make boat racing parts were hurt to give the bass folks a product with a really small margin and long production times. I can build you and or find 10 44xs today, 3 or 4 of them have won the nationals. A
ll of these motors would be less than a new bass.


750R had 37 drives and 750H had 52 drives Stock should make a stock class for the Tohatsu and make the 44xs the sole motor in D stock. Make all of the arguments you want about no more classes needed or Stock cant support 2 classes that run about the same speeds (I just stopped laughing). A club can always choose what it wants to offer. Let the market decide. You can start racing 44xs for 5k with a boat today!!!!! Can you get a Tohatsu by spring time?

Crazy long post, but I will defend the 750 class until there is a shortage of parts or no drivers.

I do not believe the mid-West is losing DSH members due to the Tohatsu! The guys selling are moving on and helping their kids and other adventures! All these guys selling their rigs have beten the Tohatsus and you say they are worried??? Sweeney even made the trip out here with his Merc and beat the Tohatsus. Reg10 has the largest DSH class in APBA and its numbers are growing due to the Tohatsu! It has been proven that a 44XS still beats the Tohatsu! Whining and crying that the motor is faster right now is BS! I believe a Reg10 44XS boat was the fastest at this past years Nationals, hands down. Why would Bass Machines buy (or customers buy) 10 motors at a time when restrictions keep being put on the engine. As to Dave Scott getting hosed...........not so, if fact, he wanted to be a Bass Tohatsu supplier also! As to buying parts for the Tohatsu.........you can go down to ANY Tohatsu dealer and order any part you need for the powerhead! Alex P. will also get any part you need also, as he is a Tohatsu parts dealer also! Also, if you are afraid a "stock" Tohatsu is gonna beat your Dmod Merc, then you dont have a very good motor.

PS: with the current economic situation, no one is buying high dollar race equipment! And your cheap shot about a government bail out for Bass Machines is not even funny!

[mercguy]

I would not have a problem with the Tahatsu being a legal D Mod engine in factory stock form. I really don't think it could compete with the decent D Mods (750CC) in the Midwest or anywhere for that matter. But it would give folks in the Midwest whom have one an option to race it I guess.

It has always been a Merc class, and always will be. But with the situation in obtaining good engines, and parts to make a Merc go fast in Modified, we might want to consider allowing different engines in that are more available to the general public.

By the way, any one of those five 44XS stock engines for sale, would make a GREAT 750CC Mod engine. They are a good foundation upon which to build a racing mod engine.

well said Dave..................." I really don't think it could compete with the decent D Mods (750CC) in the Midwest or anywhere for that matter. "

[brian]

[QUOTE=mercguy;119678]I do not believe the mid-West is losing DSH members due to the Tohatsu! The guys selling are moving on and helping their kids and other adventures! All these guys selling their rigs have beten the Tohatsus and you say they are worried??? QUOTE]

I said it was one of the factors. Tell me where I can send the Money to get a new bass foot or a Tohatsu by May?

[David_L6]

What's the big deal about the Tohatsu getting points in D Mod? Who cares about points? Can I go to the gas station (or more importantly - the liquor store! ) and buy something with those points? Does it have something to do with APBA Hall of Champions? (That's the only reason I can think of.....)

Just curious.

[Haüenstein]

What's the big deal about the Tohatsu getting points in D Mod? Who cares about points? Can I go to the gas station (or more importantly - the liquor store! ) and buy something with those points? Does it have something to do with APBA Hall of Champions? (That's the only reason I can think of.....)

Just curious.

David,

You have revealed the true pointlessness of it all. Upon reading your post, Ed Hearn's hand started to disappear like Marty McFly's.

Mike H.

[mercguy]

What's the big deal about the Tohatsu getting points in D Mod? Who cares about points? Can I go to the gas station (or more importantly - the liquor store! ) and buy something with those points? Does it have something to do with APBA Hall of Champions? (That's the only reason I can think of.....)

Just curious.

I thought you could add them all up together and buy your region Big Macs!

[mercguy]

[QUOTE=brian;119698]

I do not believe the mid-West is losing DSH members due to the Tohatsu! The guys selling are moving on and helping their kids and other adventures! All these guys selling their rigs have beten the Tohatsus and you say they are worried??? QUOTE]

I said it was one of the factors. Tell me where I can send the Money to get a new bass foot or a Tohatsu by May?

OK, let me clarify a few things with you here!! First off, Sid has the inventory RIGHT now to be able to build (4 or 5) complete Bass Tohatsu motors! You want one, send him the money and you can have one..........simple as that!!

second off..............gearcases..........Sid is more focused on building motors right now for RACERS, than he is on gearcases. Bash and treat him like ****............he will NOT build you a gearcase! Bottom line is that he is doing the best he can and doing this out of his own pocket and if you think he is making alot of money with this venture, then you are HEAVILY mistaken! At $1750 for a gearcase, that is the best deal you can find for a unit built to withstand the abuse of some of these motors. Letting the motor become legal to race in DMH allows the racer more bang for him/her buck and also allows Sid to sell more motors and build more gearcases for RACERS..............it is a FULL CIRCLE effect!! I really do not think we as racers can afford to lose a manufacturer of race parts!

so Brian, you want a motor and gearcase, send Sid the money tommorrow and you will have one............easy enough!!!!!!!!

closing statement........................WHY WOULD SID (BASS MACHINES) SUPPORT US (RACERS) WITH PARTS, MOTORS AND GEARCASES, IF WE DO NOT SUPPORT HIM????????????


and yes, I have talked with Sid about this!!!!!!!!!

[brian]

[QUOTE=mercguy;119706]

OK, let me clarify a few things with you here!! First off, Sid has the inventory RIGHT now to be able to build (4 or 5) complete Bass Tohatsu motors! You want one, send him the money and you can have one..........simple as that!!

second off..............gearcases..........Sid is more focused on building motors right now for RACERS, than he is on gearcases. Bash and treat him like ****............he will NOT build you a gearcase! Bottom line is that he is doing the best he can and doing this out of his own pocket and if you think he is making alot of money with this venture, then you are HEAVILY mistaken! At $1750 for a gearcase, that is the best deal you can find for a unit built to withstand the abuse of some of these motors. Letting the motor become legal to race in DMH allows the racer more bang for him/her buck and also allows Sid to sell more motors and build more gearcases for RACERS..............it is a FULL CIRCLE effect!! I really do not think we as racers can afford to lose a manufacturer of race parts!

so Brian, you want a motor and gearcase, send Sid the money tommorrow and you will have one............easy enough!!!!!!!!

closing statement........................WHY WOULD SID (BASS MACHINES) SUPPORT US (RACERS) WITH PARTS, MOTORS AND GEARCASES, IF WE DO NOT SUPPORT HIM????????????


and yes, I have talked with Sid about this!!!!!!!!!

You proved my point... we had a division of labor and now we have 1 supplier. You admit his margin is small and he can't foot the bill. If a blow a gearcase I can't get another.... I am just commenting from a business model this was a very poor venture for APBA and the current racers.

I like Sid and have bought a lot of stuff from him. Two gear cases and a tower and sent many more his way. But love for Sid does not change a poor business model.

Tohatsu owners want more DS racers so they can get laps. XS drivers are selling while they can get some value. People don't want to buy the Tohatsu because they have to send a huge check and then wait 6 months. To maybe drive to a race and have no one show up. Eventually Sid will make enough motors..... What if he just can't do it anymore? Then What?

Is Sid super Happy...No
Are 44xs owners Happy....No
Are Tohatsu happy...No they feel restricted (let me race with you.)
Are the mod Guys happy to not race against the Tohatsu...Yes Don't mess up something that is working.

Answer me this? Why are the full rigs that are national champions not being bought up? The price is 1000's less than the Tohatsu and you do not have to test the living heck out of it to be fast.

[mercguy]

[QUOTE=brian;119724]

You proved my point... we had a division of labor and now we have 1 supplier. You admit his margin is small and he can't foot the bill. If a blow a gearcase I can't get another.... I am just commenting from a business model this was a very poor venture for APBA and the current racers.

I like Sid and have bought a lot of stuff from him. Two gear cases and a tower and sent many more his way. But love for Sid does not change a poor business model.

Tohatsu owners want more DS racers so they can get laps. XS drivers are selling while they can get some value. People don't want to buy the Tohatsu because they have to send a huge check and then wait 6 months. To maybe drive to a race and have no one show up. Eventually Sid will make enough motors..... What if he just can't do it anymore? Then What?

Is Sid super Happy...No
Are 44xs owners Happy....No
Are Tohatsu happy...No they feel restricted (let me race with you.)
Are the mod Guys happy to not race against the Tohatsu...Yes Don't mess up something that is working.

Answer me this? Why are the full rigs that are national champions not being bought up? The price is 1000's less than the Tohatsu and you do not have to test the living heck out of it to be fast.

Brian says "Answer me this? Why are the full rigs that are national champions not being bought up? The price is 1000's less than the Tohatsu and you do not have to test the living heck out of it to be fast.;

.............simple answer............NO ONE is buying big dollar items at this time!!!!! People are getting layed off, hours reduced, etc...................boat racing is an expense that does not have to be made!!

you don't see any 44XS owners out here on the West Coast whining about getting beat by the Tohatsu, where the DSH class is the largest in the country and there are 4-5 Tohatsu's!

BTW................the winning rigs ARE the ones that "test the hell out of them" and that goes in ANY class!

PS: although this is not a STOCK debate............where can you buy BRAND NEW (lets say..more than 3) complete 44XS's right now from or even BRAND NEW Dmod Mercs???

PSS: people want new motors!!!!!!!

PSSS: Pat, do you need some butter for your popcorn??????

[Dave M]

Nowhere

[QUOTE=mercguy;119725][QUOTE=brian;119724]
PS: although this is not a STOCK debate............where can you buy BRAND NEW (lets say..more than 3) complete 44XS's right now from or even BRAND NEW Dmod Mercs???/QUOTE]

You can't. Mercury quit making them many years ago. If you get a new one now, you are getting one that has been rebuilt from an already used fishing block. You might get lucky once in a while and find a block that is in someones collection that has never been used, however, it is old never the less. The same is true for most of the Stock and Mod engines we race. I think the only truly new engines one could buy are the Yamato 302, Hot Rod (very limited in classes currently) and the Bass. Correct me if I am wrong on what engines are available new off the shelf sort to speak.

At any rate, this is a moot point. As a Mod racer I highly doubt Mod will ever run out of engines to race.