Dyno test Bass / Engine

[14-H]

Toilet Bowls

I give you my word: there will be no poppers in the D Classes.

[crankbearing]

Have no fear of that!!!!

Have no fear of a popper in the "d" class for the way it is going there will not be a "d" class. But hey that's cool you can than run three more restricted classes to waste the day.

Regards,

[Steve Johnson]

I gotta Ask

If Pairity is to be acheived < WHY > would you spend $700.00 More on a BASS Tohatsu, When a $4500.00 Mercury will do quite nicely? It would seem that the SORC target market for this motor is the rich and famous?
How does this Help further the D cLasses? Quite frankly racing D has become just too cost prohibitive. I see tons of Full figured drivers struggle with C's when they should move up. But heck you can buy Two Yamatos for about the cost of either engine. Thats why you have bad participation. Maybe a price war between the two parties will boost the class #
Maybe this motor will be no threat? I belive some of the finest Minds in engine TECH were asked for they're input? They seem to think it will be. Did you listen to them?
I'm sure things will shake out, but to what purpose does any of this serve? This decision is a lose lose for all Parties. Scott ain't selling as many as he should. The Bass Bro's ain't Selling what they should . Everyone is waiting around to see what will happen. Well anyway I'm in a great Mood "FRESH FISH" for supper ,Perch in the ten inch range. BIG by MN standerds.
Steve

[David_L6]

I have questions about this matter..... Maybe someone smarter than me has it figured out already and can answer.

I think that both Scott and Bass are trying to help boat racing by producing parts and motors.

There's no doubt that Dave Scott has helped the classes that the 25XS and 44XS run in by building parts and/or motors. He has also (maybe unintentionally) helped other classes with the parts he's built.

Bass has also helped boat racing by building the parts they offer. There is no doubt about that.


Questions:

Are enough people going to buy D stock motors from Scott and Bass to make it worth all the time, trouble, effort, and expense that they've expended to build the motors?

Would enough people buy a D stock motor to make it truly worth the effort if only one (Scott or Bass) person was building/selling them?


Now it's divided by 2. Is that good?

[ryan_4z]

I suppose they are much more qualified to put speed in a 25SSR in order to beat David Dewald's record than the likes of Ron Thomas, Bobby Austin, Brian Rhodes or Vic Brinkman or John Broge.

Give it up Ryan! The Yamatos are clearly faster than the Merc or the H/R right now but this does not mean that parity cannot be achieved in a class with multiple engines.

No Ed, that's not what I'm saying at all. What I'm saying is that those guys are putting more time, money and effort into their 25's than the Merc teams are. I believe that the Merc could be more competitive with a little more effort. You and J. Micheal Kelly proved that at Dayton this year.

And, no, I will not give it up, because I believe that you are wrong. If you prove me wrong, then fine. But I have not seen it yet, and I don't think that it is the way to fix what is wrong with this sport.

[ryan_4z]

The D Class Parity Committee met last evening and adopted the following rule changes for the D Bass/Tohatsu Engine:

1) A 1.0" propshaft height restriction measured at the plane of the center of the propshaft at its leading-most point on the gear case housing (ie: at the front of the gearcase) for both classes;
2) An additional 20lbs in weight for both DSR and DSH (ie: 525 DSR; 490 DSH);
3) A "no blue-printing rule".

These items will be printed in the next issue of the Propeller Magazine; Mike Ross will forward the exact wording to APBA for inclusion. Pursuant to APBA By-Laws, these rules become effective on December 1, 2005. EWH.

There is another side to this issue. With no end in sight for the Mercury, and the Tohatsu set up to run well behind the Merc, why should anyone buy one? As we have seen with the 25ssR experiment, it could take years to achieve parity. Even if it can be done eventually. Why would anyone spend over 5000 dollars on a motor that they won't be able to win with for years?

[ryan_4z]

I have questions about this matter..... Maybe someone smarter than me has it figured out already and can answer.

I think that both Scott and Bass are trying to help boat racing by producing parts and motors.

There's no doubt that Dave Scott has helped the classes that the 25XS and 44XS run in by building parts and/or motors. He has also (maybe unintentionally) helped other classes with the parts he's built.

Bass has also helped boat racing by building the parts they offer. There is no doubt about that.


Questions:

Are enough people going to buy D stock motors from Scott and Bass to make it worth all the time, trouble, effort, and expense that they've expended to build the motors?

Would enough people buy a D stock motor to make it truly worth the effort if only one (Scott or Bass) person was building/selling them?


Now it's divided by 2. Is that good?

I do not think that there is a big enough demand for D motors to make it worth the time of both Scott and Bass. If they were to go into somewhat of a "head to head" competition, Mr. Scott's Merc would have a big advantage, with the already available market of current Merc owners. I think that it is obvious that Mr. Scott has put much more time into the growth of this class, and he has seen results for his efforts. In addition, he is currently a manufacturer of a current racing motor, one of few such manufacturers. On top of all that, the SORC has assured Mr. Scott that they would support him in his taking on of this project. All that taken into consideration, one can only derive that the proper course of action, for the benefit of all involved, would be to keep only the Merc as the legal motor in D stock.

[tim lake]

tohatsu

we have a tohatsu we ran it in lake shebevalie . no we didnt win the race but we did finish every class we ran it in. we went with the tohatsu becuase we have six d power heads no piston or rings i got on the computor last winter and ask where to get some i was told there is none go get a 44 and run it stock . well i was tired of going to a race and working on motors at every race . so if are yamato ran good with out have to work on it all the time why not there the tohatsu . the 7 years we have raced all we have got done is ask for help to try and keep the dddddddddddddsssssssss we have running for three laps . you know what we ran the tohatsu in the d,e,se classes all weekend and it never let us down all we did was play with the setup and drink beer. if some body ask me tommow what motor to buy it would the tohatsu why because its a brand new power head and nobody has had there hands in it. pull the rope and go race. im sorry if this upset anybody but it was time to try somthing differnt or quit raceing im sorry but this day and age you have to be willing for change if your not willing to accepet new motors lets go head and run the future of boat raceing in ground . because i dont see any motor company supporting are sport in kneeldown boat raceing tim lake

[crankbearing]

we have a tohatsu we ran it in lake shebevalie . no we didnt win the race but we did finish every class we ran it in. we went with the tohatsu becuase we have six d power heads no piston or rings i got on the computor last winter and ask where to get some i was told there is none go get a 44 and run it stock . well i was tired of going to a race and working on motors at every race . so if are yamato ran good with out have to work on it all the time why not there the tohatsu . tim lake

Hey Tim,

I guess You did not ask the right people. If you had six "d" powerheads why would would someone tell you to buy a 44 motor find an engine builder. My first string "D" motor has not seen anything but carb kits and lower unit oil in three years of racing. it still has 145 lbs compression on all 4 cylinders. The 44 motor is as reliable as the day is long heck my mod 44xs is as reliable as my stock 44. Sierra has in stock all kinds of pistons for the 44 in all sizes and Merc has 2 ring loose and three ring. but I guess the tohatsu is reliable as well not saying that it's not and it should be they have only been using that block on Yamaha, suzuki and Nissan for 20 years. Do the math Merc has produced useable fishing 44 powerheads since 1973 that are direct bolt on to a 44xs mid-section ports, pistons, cranks, blocks, etc... are all the same. let see 30 years times benefit of the doubt 20,000 units per year that means there are at least 60,000 donor motors out there.

Regards,

[sam]

rings are still available for the 40ci motor

Hastings #287 for std, 287-015 for .015 over and 287-030 for .030 over

I would guess David's esitmate of 600,000 44's is probably very conservative

The number of donor 40's for blocks and pistons is probably close to that number even though the run was shorter in years; donor pistons from 20's and 60's mean more than double the number of usable pistons for 40's. There is almost always a motor with 2 7/16 pistons for sale on eBay; sometimes sellers even find NOS std and oversize pistons that sell for about the same price Merc would sell a 44 piston

[Larry Mac]

Hey Tim,

I guess You did not ask the right people. If you had six "d" powerheads why would would someone tell you to buy a 44 motor find an engine builder. My first string "D" motor has not seen anything but carb kits and lower unit oil in three years of racing. it still has 145 lbs compression on all 4 cylinders. The 44 motor is as reliable as the day is long heck my mod 44xs is as reliable as my stock 44. Sierra has in stock all kinds of pistons for the 44 in all sizes and Merc has 2 ring loose and three ring. but I guess the tohatsu is reliable as well not saying that it's not and it should be they have only been using that block on Yamaha, suzuki and Nissan for 20 years. Do the math Merc has produced useable fishing 44 powerheads since 1973 that are direct bolt on to a 44xs mid-section ports, pistons, cranks, blocks, etc... are all the same. let see 30 years times benefit of the doubt 20,000 units per year that means there are at least 60,000 donor motors out there.

Regards,

Dave I agree with everything thing you have said. We run in the NBRA and they put the Bass Tohatsu in our D (40 ci ) class. I was one of the people who suggested to Tim to get a motor from you. The stock 44 Merc closed up is very close to the D Mod (40 ci) in speed and is also a legal motor.At a later date if you want to run our E Mod (44 ci ) you have about all you need to go racing. I can understand Tim wanting to race and not being on the bank from a Merc that won't run right. But like you said that is the motor builder's fault not the motor.
Larry Mac

[jeff55v]

Why Tohatsu?

I'm only speaking for myself and why I chose to buy a Bass/Tohatsu motor.

I wanted to replace the nearly 40 yr old lower unit under my Dmod(44). I had been leaning toward a Bass lower unit for years.
I wanted to replace the old magneto ignition on my powerhead with something less troublesome.
I don't have the spare time like I used to. I wanted a powerhead that I could put a lot more heats on before teardown/repair.
I LOVE the power and speed of the D class. So I wanted to stay in that area.
I wanted to invest in something that would have parts readily available for years to come. Hopefully, I'll be still be racing this motor in 18yrs.

I like to be a little rebelious.

These are most of the reasons why I bought the Bass/Tohatsu motor.

Now, I just wanna go race it! See you in the spring!

[14-H]

No Ed, that's not what I'm saying at all. ***

That IS what you are saying.

I believe that the Merc could be more competitive with a little more effort.

You're just not hearing what I'm saying: It WILL NOT GO ANY FASTER. Guys like Brinkman, Austin and the rest tried for years to break Dewald's record and couldn't. Now it is gone, smashed by over 3mph by the Yamato.

But, again, all this means is that some tweaking needs to be done. What you are saying is very contradictory. On the one hand, you say that the Tohatsu and the Merc44 can never be tweaked so they'll work in the same class. On the other hand, you say that the Merc 25 guys just need to work a little harder so they can run with the 25 Yamatos.

[14-H]

Good Tohatsu/Merc Balance

There's an old saying with respect to a lawsuit settlement: When the Plaintiff accepts less that he wants and when the Defendant pays more than he wants to settle the case, you've reached a fair settlement.

In this case, I'm quite sure the Merc guys are still a little nervous that the Tohatsu will obsolete their stuff. I'm also just as sure that the Tohatsu guys look at the 1" restriction and are a little concerned they'll never be able to run with the Mercs. I see this, and know that we have a good start. We also have in place a committee smaller than the SORC that can keep a handle on the class rules to make sure that both engines are competitive. If the Tohatsu blows away the Mercs, you can expect more restrictions. If it runs at the back of the pack, expect the restictions to be lessened.

Additionally, there is a nice mixture of interest in the D Class now. I'm not that old, but I've been around boat racing politics long enough to see that there are two very different types of people interested in racing. One group loves to tinker with and build engines and doesn't mind looking for parts to put engines together. In fact, the satisfaction of having built a competitive engine is part of the fun.

The other group can't stand doing this. In fact, they become frustrated and quit when the equipment is no longer new. They like to be able to buy new stuff and not have to mess with it too much and they like the fact that the stuff is available and will be around for a time to come so that they can justify spending money on equipment.

I actually appreciate both. I like building HotRods and OMC A's but I also enjoy the mystique of the new Merc A in the AXS class.

The D Stock Classes now offer a place to both groups. Let's stop bickering about this and promote the classes as having new life in Stock Outboard. I think they really do. 14-H

[Tim Weber]

Mr Hearn,

One thing you forgot about with the Merc entries is that you guys who run it are dead set in using a roll up boat. On a big course we all know that a slide about goes around the course faster. J.Michael is the first guy I have seen with a Merc in side fin form and he went real good.

Also, Merc guys are pretty much working with a 10ft boat. I wonder how fast a Merc would go on Pater's super lite carbon boat? Remember that Burdick finished 5th overall at Dayton in a bigger boat and was running a borrowed motor as his good one blew-up and it was a roll up too. I asked Burdick how he did at the Divisionals when he ran against Pater and he said he was real close to beating him at Depue. Were you not 4th overall Ed? I was 10th or 11th in a Yamato. For the most part we are only talking about a couple of real elite Yamatos that are winning. Worm, Pater and Ross are three of the best ever. Remember Brinkman won at Wakefield in 02 with a Merc and before Brainwave got hurt he was super fast too.

Do I think the Yamatos' need tweeking? Yes, the weight limit for the Yamato powered rigs is silly but I am tired of all the complaining.

Tim