Sidewinder/hotrod

[G Stillwill]

Kristi they are both the same cu.in. 15 and 20 the Sidewinder is reed valve and the Hotrod is rotery valve.

[Dr. Thunder]

For us outsiders ....I think someone else also asked but was ignored for all the bikering....

Are there only 2 sizes of these engines that can run in various classes?

How does a sidewinder relate to a hotrod?

Exactly Kristi ... I was totally confused when i read that Ron Selewach was offering a brand new "Hot Rod" for 6800.00 ... I thought he was talking about a new "Sidewinder". So, my question remains what class will the new "Sidewinder" 15 c.i. be used for ... BSH/BSR or ASR/ASH or both? Will the 15 be a legal ASH/ASR engine next year? And the 20c.i engine ... will that eventually be the new "B" motor? Then what will happen to the OMC engines ... what about the Merc 15 engines? Guess I just need to pay closer attention

[STEVE FRENCH]

I'm interested in a 20....Have several rigs to run it on (BSH/Webster and two Altralite 20ssh/csh mold boats).......Already have a tower and 2 old style foots (I bought for a 25MOD-OMC), so would like to buy just a powerhead ??....If old style foot not legal then may look to trade the two early foots towards a new style........

19P

Other question I have, (and it may have be already discussed here,)........Will there be conversion kit(s) to take a 15 motor to 20 and vice-versa?

19P

[csh2z]

The timeline since the original proposal has changed. We are not going to approve a motor that has not been built yet. As we speak, the 15c.i. motors are being made. Not assembled, but all the parts are being made for the first run. I don't know how many that is. The 15c.i. motor is going into the current B class. 2008 the name of the class changes to 15SS. The legal motors are the current 15c.i. HotRod and the new Sidewinder.
The next phase will be the 20 c.i. Sidewinder into the current 20SSH. This motor will be probationary for 2008. In 2009 the class name will change to BSH. On the runabouts, the 20 c.i. Sidewinder will enter the 25SSR class, again probationary in 2008. The legal motors will then be the Sidewinder 20, the HotRod 20, The Merc 25, And the restricted Yamato's. 2008 will be the last year the restricted Yamato's will be able to run in the 25SSR class. The reason for this happening so quickly is due to the great difference in boat size that gives an unfair advantage to the Yamato motors.
Phase 3 is the A class. We are hoping to have the Sidewinder available at some point in the 2008 racing season at which time it will immediately be probationary. If, at the end of next season we are comfortable with the performance of the A motor and availability is not a problem we will probably make it legal for the 2009 season.
After the 2009 season we will evaluate each class to begin to develop a phase out plan. As with any "PLAN" things can change but I don't foresee any possibility of a phase out of any motors, aside from the Yamato's in 25SSR, accelerating. Bear in mind as veteran boat racers and therefore mentors, it is our responsibility to advise any perspective new drivers/owners of what our plans for class structure will be, so that they are not mislead or taken advantage of. Nothing, going forward can negatively effect our ressurgance more the that.
Thank you and God Bless America!

[jeff55v]

...In a perfect world...

I say only give one year for the old motor and it's over, buy a new one- simple

That would work in a perfect world.

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But, Many folks can't afford to buy a new motor. If we did what you propose, we'd kill off the very classes we're trying to revitalize. Sorry, I wish it were that simple.
We can't afford to lose any drivers, that's why new stuff has to be phased in slowly. IMHO.

Oh, and thanks John Runne for the class breakdown and plans for each class and motor.

[ryan_4z]

is the new Sidewinder A motor, which is already approved for the A classes (but not even available yet), gonna be subjected to the same **** (scrutiny) the Bass Tohatsu has had to go through. Yes, I hear Ron has invested QUITE a chunk of $$$ into the Sidewinder project (and has more to spend than Bass Machines), but so has Bass Machines and they had to fight tooth and nail to get the motor approved (in a more needed class) and is still "probationary" in DMod. Should not the same courtesy be given to the Bass Tohatsu? Yes, more people have now seen the Tohatsu run and have changed their views, but is the same thing gonna happen with the A Sidewinder (IT BETTER!)? I guess my point is that the NEW Sidewinder A motor should still be on a "probationary status" until it is available to the members, not already being approved, when it is not even for sale yet. This is not a negative action towards Ron and his hard work, but seems the SORC jumped the gun slightly......

PS: I have read about 10 or so motors being promised for purchase here by members at $4500 or so, but do you think more will step up and buy them? I do not think 20 motors would sell in 1 yr. Hell, Montoya has close to 100 Yamato 302's (a well proven and highly reliable made for racing motor) and does not forsee them all being sold for 5yrs or so...........at $2200 (half the price of a Sidewinder)!!!!! Bass Machines Tohatsu will be near $6000 for 2008, but there are probably 12 or more out there.........(should check that number with Sid as there might be more)........but, it took several years for that to happen. I do not think the Sidewinder motor would be in any position to take over the A class for atleast 6/7 years, if lucky.

everyone should know that Ron is pretty much taking on a "money losing" battle with the new Sidewinder project, as I can not imagine any profit being made for atleast 10yrs, if that.

Daren, and everyone else, The Sidewinder "A" will be on probationary status, as will all other new SW motors. The A will not be out for a while I imagine, as it is not needed quite yet. The 15(B) motor is the motor of discussion. Also, as has been stated many times before, the timeline that was approved at this years national meeting is not cut in stone. All of the new motors will be on probation for the first year, as has been pretty standard for the history of SO.

Also Daren, Why would you wish the hardships that Bass has had to go through on SW. Seems pretty spiteful and childish to me.

As for why Montoya has been unable to sell motors, probably has something to do with all of the available used motors, and a lack of new racers.

[Dr. Thunder]

The timeline since the original proposal has changed. We are not going to approve a motor that has not been built yet. As we speak, the 15c.i. motors are being made. Not assembled, but all the parts are being made for the first run. I don't know how many that is. The 15c.i. motor is going into the current B class. 2008 the name of the class changes to 15SS. The legal motors are the current 15c.i. HotRod and the new Sidewinder.
The next phase will be the 20 c.i. Sidewinder into the current 20SSH. This motor will be probationary for 2008. In 2009 the class name will change to BSH. On the runabouts, the 20 c.i. Sidewinder will enter the 25SSR class, again probationary in 2008. The legal motors will then be the Sidewinder 20, the HotRod 20, The Merc 25, And the restricted Yamato's. 2008 will be the last year the restricted Yamato's will be able to run in the 25SSR class. The reason for this happening so quickly is due to the great difference in boat size that gives an unfair advantage to the Yamato motors.
Phase 3 is the A class. We are hoping to have the Sidewinder available at some point in the 2008 racing season at which time it will immediately be probationary. If, at the end of next season we are comfortable with the performance of the A motor and availability is not a problem we will probably make it legal for the 2009 season.
After the 2009 season we will evaluate each class to begin to develop a phase out plan. As with any "PLAN" things can change but I don't foresee any possibility of a phase out of any motors, aside from the Yamato's in 25SSR, accelerating. Bear in mind as veteran boat racers and therefore mentors, it is our responsibility to advise any perspective new drivers/owners of what our plans for class structure will be, so that they are not mislead or taken advantage of. Nothing, going forward can negatively effect our ressurgance more the that.
Thank you and God Bless America!

Yikes ... I know this must seem incredibly simple to those of you that get it but, if I understand what you said above (by the way John thanks for the response) the 15c.i engine is intended for the "B" class which will be renamed 15SS for the 2008 racing season. It will be legal, not probationary, engine for 15SS for the 2008 racing season.

So, what was meant by "We are not going to approve a motor that has not been built yet" ... are you referring to the 20c.i. motor?

With respect to Phase 3 ... the "A" class ... do I understand correctly that if a new Sidewinder "A" is available at some time during the 2008 season it could be raced with the current OMC "A" and Merc 15 "A" engines (albeit in a probationary status). Your comment about needing to be " ...comfortable with the performance ... " of the Sidewinder "A" engine means what? Are you concerned that it may be too fast or too slow? Or are you concerned about reliability?

Finally, how will the "A" Sidewinder be different from the 15 c.i. Sidewinder engine?

Sorry if these questions have been answered before. And, thanks again for your response.

[mercguy]

Daren, and everyone else, The Sidewinder "A" will be on probationary status, as will all other new SW motors. The A will not be out for a while I imagine, as it is not needed quite yet. The 15(B) motor is the motor of discussion. Also, as has been stated many times before, the timeline that was approved at this years national meeting is not cut in stone. All of the new motors will be on probation for the first year, as has been pretty standard for the history of SO.

Also Daren, Why would you wish the hardships that Bass has had to go through on SW. Seems pretty spiteful and childish to me.

As for why Montoya has been unable to sell motors, probably has something to do with all of the available used motors, and a lack of new racers.

Ryan, I guess what I typed what not what I was trying to say (what's new?). Anyways, all I am saying is that it seems that the Sidewinder is being "catered" to by the SORC and that the Bass project was not given the same chance as the Sidewinder is being given. I think Tony said something about the Sidewinder project having a "man on the inside" and it seemed appropriate to me.

now, you state that maybe the reason more 302's have not sold is maybe because there is a lack of new racers? Isn't that gonna be the same thing with the Sidewinder? While I agree a "time line" is needed, I doubt it is gonna be accomplished in the A class with the full transition to the Sidewinder, as I truly believe that amount of motors will not be sold. Now, Ron knows me (I know him probably longer than most here on this site, excpet for George and a few others) and knows I am not trying to be against his (and Ed's) endevour. Enough............the D class is the one that needs the most help and is now prospering due to the Bass Tohatsu..............good luck with the classes the Sidewinders run in.............

[ryan_4z]

Daren, You are not listening. The first motors to come out are the 15 and 20. The 15ss class desperatly needs motors. It is struggling almost as much at the D class. The A motor will be out later. I personally don't forsee them being able to sell a whole lot of these as the OMC is still very popular. Sidewinder's interchangable parts will help alleviate the problem of parts sitting on the shelves. The reason that the 15 will sell better than the 302 is right now, is that the C class is already very popular nationwide, while 15ss is a fairly regional class. This class has much more potential to grow right now than does the C class.

[14-H]

What will happen if the Sidewinders are not as fast as the OMC's or the Hot Rods (a very likely probability)?

Answer: No one will buy them.

Hobart: EXACTLY

This is the same reason the "D" Tohatsu needs to be able to win.

The Tohatsu IS able to win. The only reason it didn't this year is because the guys who were driving them jumped the gun!

[mercguy]

Daren, You are not listening. The first motors to come out are the 15 and 20. The 15ss class desperatly needs motors. It is struggling almost as much at the D class. The A motor will be out later. I personally don't forsee them being able to sell a whole lot of these as the OMC is still very popular. Sidewinder's interchangable parts will help alleviate the problem of parts sitting on the shelves. The reason that the 15 will sell better than the 302 is right now, is that the C class is already very popular nationwide, while 15ss is a fairly regional class. This class has much more potential to grow right now than does the C class.

OK, I see where Neal was confused too (cause apparently I am too).....the 15SS class (B now right?)............was confused with being the 15 OMC motor, which is the A class............now, that is confusing!

BTW, ya wanna make a wager on the 15 Sidewinder outselling the 302 Yamato???????

[14-H]

I***

14-H- Ed- is it a really big deal if the sidewinder is a little slower than the old hotrod?? if ***

Todd: Not if you're the owner and you don't care about losing your entire investment. Read Hobart's answer to my question. He is exactly right. But then you have the scenario of the older engine being faster than the new one and no one will want to buy the new stuff.

I hope the full SORC treats the Sidewinder differently than it treated the Merc 15 and the Y-302. That is a pretty risky bet, however, especially based upon past performance.

The Parity Committee was the only reason that the D Tohatsu ever got approved. Some people are so blind and uninformed, however, they do not realize this. Only a parity committee will ensure that the Sidewinder will be able to compete. Otherwise, the 15/B classes will need to be moved to the J Committee for handling (like AXS) in order to ensure that the new engine can compete. Eddie.

[sponsonhead]

Half Empty/Half Full

Ryan, I guess what I typed what not what I was trying to say (what's new?). Anyways, all I am saying is that it seems that the Sidewinder is being "catered" to by the SORC and that the Bass project was not given the same chance as the Sidewinder is being given. I think Tony said something about the Sidewinder project having a "man on the inside" and it seemed appropriate to me.

Another thread that I have been lurking and following, hoping I wouldn't jump in, but here I go.....

Daren, I guess it all depends on how one would choose to look at things: A "half empty glass" view of this would be that the skids are being greased for the Sidewinder, and because the principals in the project are better known than those on the Tohatsu project that they aren't getting the Spanish Inquisition Treatment and some of the hassles that Sid and Neil Bass feel they have encountered.

By contrast, I'd tend to look at this with a "half-full glass" view, that perhaps something was learned from some of the botched handling of the Tohatsu project, and that perhaps those on the SORC and the Steering Committee are trying to avoid this with the Sidewinder.

Given that one of the definitions of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results, it looks to me that we should be applauding the efforts of attempting to streamline the Sidewinder adoption process, and not feeling slighted because we didn't make every new motor manufacturer go thru an onerous, contentious process. Shoudn't we learn from our mistakes?

I don't want to put words in Neil and Sid's mouths, but I'm sure they wouldn't want Ron and Ed to have to be subjected to the ordeal that they have, and to some extent, still are going thru.

Ok, back to lurk mode.

R-19

[14-H]

***I was not pestering Racing Outboards at all, just asking if they are gonna have to put up with the BS that Bass had to? ***?

Exactly, Darren! As has been explained to you repeatedly, that BS you are talking about was necessary to get the engine approved. The Tohatsu became a legal engine within a year of being proposed to the SORC and had a real chance of winning the nationals within two. Perhaps you might place a phone call to Ric Montoya and see how long it took him to get the same result for the Y-302 in the C Classes.

I didn't accuse you of pestering RO, just of not know what you were talking about. As they say, those who know not of history are condemned to repeat it.

Your pal, Eddie.

[mercguy]

Man of words......Pat!!

Another thread that I have been lurking and following, hoping I wouldn't jump in, but here I go.....

Daren, I guess it all depends on how one would choose to look at things: A "half empty glass" view of this would be that the skids are being greased for the Sidewinder, and because the principals in the project are better known than those on the Tohatsu project that they aren't getting the Spanish Inquisition Treatment and some of the hassles that Sid and Neil Bass feel they have encountered.

By contrast, I'd tend to look at this with a "half-full glass" view, that perhaps something was learned from some of the botched handling of the Tohatsu project, and that perhaps those on the SORC and the Steering Committee are trying to avoid this with the Sidewinder.

Given that one of the definitions of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results, it looks to me that we should be applauding the efforts of attempting to streamline the Sidewinder adoption process, and not feeling slighted because we didn't make every new motor manufacturer go thru an onerous, contentious process. Shoudn't we learn from our mistakes?

I don't want to put words in Neil and Sid's mouths, but I'm sure they wouldn't want Ron and Ed to have to be subjected to the ordeal that they have, and to some extent, still are going thru.

Ok, back to lurk mode.

R-19

well said and I am going "back to lurk mode" myself.........