rule proposal 21

[kws]

why not gage class viability on nationals turn out?if you dont have (example) a full field the class then becomes probationary?

[ryan_4z]

why not gage class viability on nationals turn out?if you dont have (example) a full field the class then becomes probationary?

The whole point is to recognize classes on a National level. BSR will have a full field every time in Wakefield, or Dayton. Does that make it a nationally viable class, absolutely not. The class is strong in the midwest, with some participation in the east. That's it. I believe it already states in our rule book that there must be 12 bona fide starters for a National Championship to count towards the Hall of Champions.

[kws]

thanks Ryan

[JoBrewster]

If we truly want to grow this sport than we need to look at combining all clases. My dad, when he was the chairman, proposed an idea to combine classes for the Stock, Mod, and Pro Category, to make it more viable to have full field of classes. It was shot down by the Stock, Mod and Pro Commission, because they did not want to join. I find it ironic that the same issue is coming up now. I will make people mad, but at this point, I don't care, OSY 400 is CSH. FAH is ASH and so forth. The only category that is growing and improving on numbers is the J category with the AXSH class. The Stock Commission did not want it, the ASH drivers did not want the new motor, and yet, you are now questioning it's viability, when it is one of the fastest growing classes of drivers coming up from J to Stock? Pass this rule, and you will lose drivers and you will lose members, my brother for one. He still races stock in 45, wants to continue to race stock, you pass this rule and you lose one member. We cannot, as a category afford that. I agree that we need to look at other ways to make it viable for racers to race, but until we figure out a way to grow members, we cannot afford to lose members; and that is exactly what this rule will do. Look at your own clubs, regions, etc.. to get people into boats. Myself, this year, I gave my own equipment, my own boat, my own time and my crew to put five new drivers into boats. Their biggest complaint, where is the equipment? You talk about the new motor, the new A motor, the new B motor and so forth, but where is the motor. I cannot sell a new driver into racing if I don't have something for him to buy. Until we have something viable in front of us to buy and sell then we have nothing. I would love to race BSH, I would love to get into another class, but I cannot because there is no motor and there is no exact date of that motor.

[CSR4C]

Warm Bodies

I mailed by ballot to day with a no vote. Yes we do need to eliminate weak classes. But I seamed to target DSR, which is growing. There is a new motor available.
My big issue is how we are doing the counting. Just warm bodies are being counted, not boats on the water. Total entries per class would be a better gage of what’s going on. Also in DSR last year the count went from 17 to 24.

I am going to use a couple of extreme examples to prove a point.

Class X has 12 registered drivers, they are die-hard racers. They race in every race in their region & neighboring regions, the Winter Nationals, Divisionls and Nationals. They each race 24 races total with a full field of 12 at each race. The racing is so great that everyone in the pits watches them race. The have 288 total entries, but only 12 warm bodies and 12 boats.

Class Y has 7 boat owners, of which 4 own an extra boat. 2 owners only race twice, one only once, the 4 owners with 2 boats race in 7 races, but never all at the same race, and at each race a different driver drives their spare boat. They have 35 warm bodies, but only 61 entries and only 11 boats.

Which class deserves national status? X or Y?

In example Y there is nothing wrong with a driver loaning out a spare rig to help build a class. I use to have the “Tiger boat" that I loaned in CSR to build the class that added 6-7 additional “warm bodies” to the class each year. But it really was only 1 boat. There was even an article in the Propeller showing pictures of all the different drivers racing Tiger.

When a meaningful count system is used, like total entries per year. Then I will consider voting for a proposal that weeds out weak classes.

Darrell Sorensen 4-C

[PURPLE HAZE]

http://nuclearworldaction.com/target.html



BREWSTER IS RIGHT WITH THE THREE MOD,STOCK,PRO WAS ALLWAYS A BLAST AND YOU NEED TO HAVE NEW MOTORS WHAT DID DSH HYDRO DO AFTER THE 44 CAME OUT IF I REMEBER IT GREW I SHOULD STAY OUT BUT WE HAD THE SAME STUFF BACK IN THE 80S WE WOULD SLEEP IN TENTS AND WORK ALL WEEK AT 7.50 HR JUST TO RACE ON THE WEEKENDS SO I GUESS I CAN SAY SOMETHING THAT MIGHT HELP SORRY IF NOT JAKE .

[Ron Hill]

My Sons Would Vote

IF THEY GOT BALLOTS.... Do you have to e-mail APBA to get a ballot? We had to e-mail them to get the propeller...

Where we race 45's we get two four lap heats on Saturday and two ten lap qualifiers...and ON SUNDAY we get two four lap heats and a 25 lap main event....We get about 10 to 20 boats out to race....


We get on TV. We watch the Cracker Boxes. We watch the K Boats. We watch the Pro Stocks. We watch the GN's... We watch the Super Stocks....We watch the Nostaglia Jets...We watch the Nostalgia Flats... We help Pat race Nostalgia Endurance.......These ARE CALIFORNIA CLASSES....BASICALLY... have Nationals right here, except Nostalgia, and I'm working on that....These classes average 4 to 16 boats...Under rule 21 everyone of these classes would not have a nationals.....

But our Three or four A Hydros, our three or four 20 Hydros and our three or four C Hydro would have a nationals....

I'd really like to see PROOF that dropping a class from National status ever did anything but hurt Boat Racing.....

There are maybe 20 Cracker Boxes in the country....But If I was the owner or the driver of the National Championship Cracker Box I could guarantee you I'd be as proud as if I'd have won the GOLD CUP BECAUSE I know every Cracker Box racer is VERY SERIOUS about trying to win....every race, but there are only about 20 boats...

To me, it was a sad day in APBA History when 36 Runabout was dropped from National Status....Our club lost their commodore, race chairman, publicity chairman.....and our patrol boats in one swoop of the pen....

36 may have been Adult JU...but let me ask how many drivers loved racing JU????

I'll bet AOF doesn't drop 45 SS or D Runabout!!!!! Funny because thiri are some real die hard APBA members in Region 12, that are thinking change might be good!!!!

[ryan_4z]

You guys don't get it. This isn't some evil plan to eliminate DSR, or 45ss. You need to read the rule closer and pay attention to those who wrote it. We don't want to see these classes go away, we want to give the drivers a kick in the ass (except 45ss but that is a completely different issue that deserves a thread of it's own). This makes the drivers responsible for the future of their class.

Tammy, what equipment can you not find. I'm sure if you were more specific people have what you need. New equipment is a problem though, and it is being worked on. This is a small part of a plan that will take years.

LOOK AT THE BIG PICTURE.

ADD: Why is it that everytime a new rule comes out people say they are quitting, instead of dealing with it. That seams a pretty chickensh*t to me.

[ryan_4z]

I mailed by ballot to day with a no vote. Yes we do need to eliminate weak classes. But I seamed to target DSR, which is growing. There is a new motor available.
My big issue is how we are doing the counting. Just warm bodies are being counted, not boats on the water. Total entries per class would be a better gage of what’s going on. Also in DSR last year the count went from 17 to 24.

I am going to use a couple of extreme examples to prove a point.

Class X has 12 registered drivers, they are die-hard racers. They race in every race in their region & neighboring regions, the Winter Nationals, Divisionls and Nationals. They each race 24 races total with a full field of 12 at each race. The racing is so great that everyone in the pits watches them race. The have 288 total entries, but only 12 warm bodies and 12 boats.

Class Y has 7 boat owners, of which 4 own an extra boat. 2 owners only race twice, one only once, the 4 owners with 2 boats race in 7 races, but never all at the same race, and at each race a different driver drives their spare boat. They have 35 warm bodies, but only 61 entries and only 11 boats.

Which class deserves national status? X or Y?

In example Y there is nothing wrong with a driver loaning out a spare rig to help build a class. I use to have the “Tiger boat" that I loaned in CSR to build the class that added 6-7 additional “warm bodies” to the class each year. But it really was only 1 boat. There was even an article in the Propeller showing pictures of all the different drivers racing Tiger.

When a meaningful count system is used, like total entries per year. Then I will consider voting for a proposal that weeds out weak classes.

Darrell Sorensen 4-C

Darrell,

You make a good point here. I agree this needs to be addressed. Dad and I talked about doing something with the number of drivers who raced 5 or more times in a class. I think that would be a little more indicitive of what a national class is. That, however, should not keep us from voting for this right now. This is the first step people, we can make changes.

[race4kaos]

X or Y

Which class deserves national status? X or Y?

probably NEITHER.

why should a DSR have the SAME STATUS as CSH ?!? a change in 'status' happens all the time these days. this doesn't mean it dies. this rule gives 3 years to fix the problem! if it's growing or those racers care so much in those classes, great! it won't be an issue. how can you say they deserve the same 'national' status as CSH?
if this were a business, DSR even having 'local' status would be a blessing.
personally, i like DSR, BSR, 25H, etc. but if there's not enough drivers, engines, etc. to make it a nationwide class, it doesn't deserve 'national' status.

the engine builders want to save them, great! do it already. and show the timetable. you have just under 3 years. clock's a tickin'...


PS. does AOF really race 45ss? i have no idea why it's still in the SO category. i'm a big supporter of the sst45 class. and CSH. i just don't get why you need 45ss and OSY400. just run sst45 and CSH again the same day.

[ryan_4z]

Holy Sh*t! Kevin Ladd and I agree on something! I never thought I'd say this but listen to Kevin people, he's right on the money here.

[race4kaos]

yeah...

right back at cha' buddy. must be a cold day in hell... lol.

dean and i talked about your posts for an hour on the way up snowmobiling. said i should read them differently. i'll try to keep an open mind...

worse than that, i think i agree with Ed on this one too. sucks...

at least i'm arguing with jobrew-tammy...

[Ron Hill]

I Get Lots of Stuff.....

But I don't get why Tammy Dawe can't post here under her name...Maybe, she can post from her school computer as JoBrew????

After being in Boat Racing for 63 years, I doubt I'm going away way soon...unless I die!!!!

But let me address the word "STATUS"......

1. Would I rather win a heat at San Diego, where there are more than 100,000 people watch my class? (With 18 boats)... Or would I rather win "C" Hydro at Wakefield, Michigan??? (12 boat final)... C Hydro is the largest Stock Class...


I know of one 45 driver who was an APBA Hall of Champions driver, many times that hasn't missed San Diego in the last three years....Status is in the "EYE OF THE BE HOLDER"...There is no title for winning San Diego...but TRUST ME, when my son made a pass at San Diego, and I could hear the crowd roar above the sound of the boats....I felt STATUS as his DAD!!!


Chad went from last to second....and the roar of the crowd got bigger every pass....and this was in the SST 45 twenty five lap final....

The CLASS that has the most STATUS is the CLASS YOUR KID RACES!!!!

I've watched AMY ELDREDGE's interview from winning K Pro, DePue 2006, and I cry each time....Over a hundred years of racing history in her family.... Eight women in the finals....How many K Pros are there? How many women driver are there??? Status??? Dish Network Water Channel is STATUS to me.

1,100 CC Runabouts: How many are there??? At DePue win 1,100 at that is STATUS.....112 MPH!! Status???

The ONLY FAIR WAY to decide who runs at the next Nationals (2008) would be to count the number of boats that crossed the starting line...during a calendar year... If, for example, you come up with 200 boats needed to make a start for a Nationals...It could be the same four boats start 50 heats....200 Starts would give a class National Status...

I watched B Runabout at the Louisiana Winner Nationals, 2006, it appeared to me, that the round chine boat and Hot Rod of Ed Hearn's was "WAY COOL"...It also appeared to me that BSR was the only class at the Winter Nationals, where the best driver could MAYBE win, in NOT the best boat...

It seems to me, that BSR, with a new Sidewinder motor, could develop in to a YOUNG MAN'S DRIVER CLASS....No motors, and not 35 boats...no class...

There was this guy that owned a HAMBURGER STAND. He got a lot a business off the interstate highway. His son went to school and heard a recession was coming. So the son told his dad he should save money by turning off his BIG electrical sign on the interstate...Not long after that, the hamburger stand went broke. The man was so happy he'd saved some money on his electric bill....Because his son was right, there was a recession coming...

When 36 was first dropped as a NATIONAL CLASS we ran their Nationals at Bakersfield...We'd get almost a full field of 36's...Guys like Al Stoker, Allen Sutfin, Mickey Schwarzenbach...ran D Runabout and sometimes C Runabout also...John Stoker donated trophies from John's Custom Marine...He towed two patrol boats to the race......

The problem is YOU GUYS DON'T GET IT....DROPPING CLASSES isn't the answer....Points should be awarded by the number of boats beat....That would give status to the guy who beats the most boats...

OSY 400 is a great class for lighter drivers who don't like to carry 100 pounds of lead. Any PROOF that K PRO or OSY 400 is less safe than A HYDRO and C HYDRO??? It looks like to me, the OSY 400 boats work better without the weight....and I like heavy boats because I weigh 240....


Anyone who has ever won a race at DePue...Know STATUS in his mind...The way to create STATUS is to make sure your events get on the Water Channel and on Hydroracer and on www.boatracingfacts.com .

Add: There is a NEW Tohatsu D motor, there are new D Runabouts or at least more than last year... There is finally a boat and motor class in kneeldowns for BIG PEOPLE

Is the marathon Nationals a STATUS RACE??? Do you think Darrell Sorensen goes to Top of Michigan every year because there are 18 C Runabouts or 78 C Runabouts...? The race HAS STATUS....

Why do you think MANY 45 drivers in California aren't anxious to got to Moses Lake (Where they've never raced at or seen)....(To run two heats)... when they can race in Southern California at the Long Beach marine Stadium where 50,000 people will view the races over the three days.....???

Status is in the EYE of the Beholder...Drop classes and THERE will be a drop, again, in membership!!!

[ryan_4z]

But let me address the word "STATUS"......

1. Would I rather win a heat at San Diego, where there are more than 100,000 people watch my class? (With 18 boats)... Or would I rather win "C" Hydro at Wakefield, Michigan??? (12 boat final)... C Hydro is the largest Stock Class...

I would rather win the Nationals in CSH than the Nobel Prize.

It seems to me, that BSR, with a new Sidewinder motor, could develop in to a YOUNG MAN'S DRIVER CLASS....No motors, and not 35 boats...no class...

As Dana Holt stated earlier, there are going to be exemptions from this rule for these new motors as they are phased in. These kinds of things are being taken into consideration.

Add: There is a NEW Tohatsu D motor, there are new D Runabouts or at least more than last year... There is finally a boat and motor class in kneeldowns for BIG PEOPLE...

Both the Merc and Tohatsu motors have been available for the last couple of years. The DSR class has still shown no growth. Right around 15 drivers for the last 10 years. Is that a nationally viable class?

[Steve Johnson]

Debate Team

This thread is wonderful,
reasonable debate on a subject that is going to a vote.
we are doing quite a lot right....