rule proposal 21

[kws]

Hey Steve,

I can appreciate both sides of this arguement on this issue. I am on favor of it, because it is one of the first real steps I have seen for change and long term growth.

Money is a very legit concern, but is a short term issue. Dana proposed a solution in a earlier post that he has implemented successfully at his race in Alex., KY. Run your six or seven biggest classes three times. This generates max. revenue from entries. It also gives more seat time to the biggest classes and may draw a few more racers. With travel cost what they are now, if I have to pick between a race that I run twice and a race that I run three times, I will go to the three times race.

Why don't you think this is a solution to the race day cost issue?

Thanks,
CSH12M

Ok i will go out on a limb here. it seems to reward the big classes for being big and does nothing to get the smaller ones growing.

[ricochet112]

New Rule Not Much Different

Isn't this about the same rule that we've had for a long time, but the boat count used to be 50?

How long are we going to have 8-10 hour long race days deterring new members, volunteers and sponsors before we make some difficult changes?

It doesn't eliminate classes, only makes them regional.

Survival of the fittest.

[dholt]

Rewarding participation. Why is that a bad idea??

Unless there is a stock outboard driver under paid contract out there, which we all know there isn't, nothing is preventing any of us from racing in a class which has good participation...which in turn...only helps the sport/clubs/APBA as a whole.

For those opposed to change....I ask again. What is your alternative? Should there be a minimum number of participants for a class to remain in existence on a National or regional level? Is 5 boats a National class? Is 10? How about 1? What if a class has 0 boats in a given year? Is your plan to wait it out....give it another year or so?

How do you propose to encourage future and current participants to buy into classes for which a motor manufacturer is supplying engines?


Should SO still be running 35SSH, 35SSR, 20SSR, SUPER C HYDRO, 36 runabout, 20ci BSR and 20ci BSH? Yes or no...and why?

Warbs...you were part of the generation of leadership that helped get rid of the old Merc 'A', the Merc 25ss, the 20-H, the 30-H...all for the right reasons and good for the future.


Are we so successful now that change is not necessary?

[mike ross]

The future is alot of boats in all classes (35 or more)but have a few less classes so our program is not so difficult on everyone.

[14-H]

You could still run a class as a local class and keep your numbers the same? Would not hurt your entry fee income.

...I for one am tired of watching 4 boat races.

How's that jive with the OSY-400 position from Region 7?

You're in the Big League now, Don. Expect the heat to rise a little bit. Congrats. They say the best leaders are the ones that don't want the position. Ed.

[14-H]

Serious Question

**Think that's where the future is?

Stock Activity

Stock '97 '98 '99 '00 '01 '02 '03 '04 '05 ‘06
ASR 86 82 85 70 71 82 82 73 71 70
BSR 36 35 29 25 27 24 26 36 27 30
CSR 69 73 79 85 94 100 109 87 93 85
DSR 11 13 10 15 15 12 10 13 16 17
25SSR 16 15 26 27 29 35 54 56 72 52
ASH 105 87 97 100 94 103 105 107 97 88
BSH 32 40 29 30 31 40 29 30 26 39
CSH 112 128 141 140 117 130 129 124 141 120
DSH 37 38 35 26 31 31 37 33 42 44
25SSH 25 27 23 25 25 34 38 42 36 42
20SSH 86 92 104 106 101 115 107 111 121 98
45SST 28 24 20 25 21 18 21 22 25 24----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Total: 643 654 678 674 656 723 747 734 767 709

The problem I have with this, and don't misunderstand me, I agree that we have too many classes, but why would we kill off classes with 20-30 members in Stock Outboard and keep right on racing on a schedule that includes the Mods and the PRO's where one-half of their classes are smaller in participation?

The reason I supported combining the three categories into one was just for this. I would do it in a way that keeps all of the current equipment and lets it run in some APBA class but make sure new engines are competitive in their class (hold the cracks and stay on subject, please).

We're gonna kill 45SS or DSR with 20 boats yet Formula A Runabout with only 5 gets to stay????

As Larry the Cable Guy says: That don't make ANY sense!

[ryan_4z]

This rule is part of a big picture for Stock Outboard. Warbs says he is worried about today, well if we only worry about today, we will never make it to tommorow. This new rule is not going to cause us to lose race sites. There are numerous ways to get more entry fees as Dana and Mike have illustrated. If racers would rather quit than grow their own class, then maybe that's what is best. If my class was on the cusp, I would re-double my efforts to grow it, not run away crying. The classes that are not national classes can still race, and still pay entry fee. This rule sets a bar, do we want to set the bar lower rather than higher. I think we should hold ourselves to a higher standard of competition. We have to have a measure of success and failure. The statistic we have in this case is membership. If a class membership falls below 35, something needs to be done. Nobody is getting thrown out on their ass here. There is time to evaluate the problem, and fix it built into this rule. When membership in a class drops, we need to ask why. Maybe it is time for a new motor, maybe there just isn't a demand for the class at all. That, I feel, is the situation with our D class. Most of the guys who run the big fast classes it seems are running mod now, as opposed to D stock. It is cheaper and easier to put together a C mod than a D stock. I believe that this class has lost it's purpose. Now don't get me wrong, I am not happy about that at all, I think it's a sad truth. This rule helps us streamline or class structure, our rules, our race day, it's the first step in making this a marketable sport. We need this kind of organization because right now we are a mess. We have to be tough enough to deal with these issues, we can't just pretend that everything is alright, because it hasn't been alright for a while. Some peoples feelings are going to get hurt, some people will think that the commission is just out to get them, this just isn't the case. This may be a hard pill to swallow, but it's going to help cure our sport.

[L. Allen]

Wwrrd ? ? ?

[L. Allen]

"You have no enemies you say?
Alas, my friend, the boast is poor.
He who has mingled in the fray
Of duty that the brave endure.
Must have made foes.
You say you have none?
Small is the work that you have done.
You've hit no traitor on the hip,
You've dashed no cup from perjured lip.
You've never turned the wrong to right?
You've been a coward in the fight."

[Big Don]

I agree that the number of members/racers are too low so we have to do something to try and increase membership. I’m just not sure there it’s a quick fix, we may have worked ourselves into a hole that could take years to fix.

Here are some numbers that I found on the internet.

Real median household income remained unchanged between 2003 and 2004 at $44,389, according to a report released today by the U.S. Census Bureau. Meanwhile, the nation’s official poverty rate rose from 12.5 percent in 2003 to 12.7 percent in 2004. The percentage of the nation’s population without health insurance coverage is at 15.7 percent in 2004 that means about 46 million people do not have health insurance.

Real median household income remained unchanged between 2003 and 2004 in three of the four census regions — Northeast ($47,994), West ($47,680) and South ($40,773). The exception was the Midwest, where income declined 2.8 percent, to $44,657.

The average American is over $8800.00 in credit card debt.

I share that just to show that the average American can not afford to race any form of racing. So our pool of prospects gets limited. I know we still have millions to draw from... (There is no way we could afford to race if that was our family’s income)

I love this sport to death but I tend to think I’m a realist. Do I think we will ever be like some other forms of racing? Not unless we make some changes to our sport to make it more appealing. We need to look at this like it’s a business. What would you do if you were loosing customer base? You would have to change your current practice or risk having your business go under. There are way too many options for the average person to get involved in these days if they can afford it. Then look at how many more things the average family has in front of them now than 20 years ago. From personal water crafts that the entire family can use… to sports that kids are in… tournament teams, travel teams, camps… Our family will have to make some decisions this summer as to going to a wresting camps or go racing that weekend. High school coaches push these or your children risk not playing. Every summer you hear from families that have been racing for years say we won’t be there this weekend we have a baseball tournament, hockey game, football, wrestling camp… I don’t know about you but I played sports during the week and the weekend was for the family. Not any more!!!! Coaches own these kids and want them playing their sports or working on it 365 days a year.

My point is there are so many other things we are competing against that we have to do something to make us more appealing than the next thing. And then, while doing that, not risk the members/numbers we have now. Most areas/regions are so fragile right now that loosing a few members could ruin the region. Like I said in a previous post, I hate watching and having my family compete in 4 boat races. But loosing more racers and not racing is worse. Do we think 4 boat races look appealing to a prospective customer? How do we keep the families in this sport that have ten’s of thousands of dollars invested from leaving if we bring in new equipment and obsolete the equipment they have? I know I could not afford to go out and buy new engines for every class we race. And I certainly don’t want to be racing for 4th behind the new equipment because the people with the most cash could afford to go buy one and now they are faster then the old engines. But we also need new equipment! We just have to find that perfect combination.

Couple random thoughts…

Stock needs to be just that…STOCK. I don’t care what kind of boat it’s on. I don’t care if it has pipes on it. Stock is stock.

This entire process of blueprinting engines to be competitive is crazy. Get caught cheating, the penalty needs to be severe. How do we protect ourselves from having someone build you an engine that is illegal? Make the person put a seal on the engine with their name on it or some code that we all know. If the seal is broken then they are not liable the owner is. The owner sends it to a different builder then his seal is on it. Build it yourself then there is no seal and you are responsible.

Fuel…I’m not smart enough to comment on this. Other than you put something in your fuel that is hazardous to others then you should be banned from our sport. Sport being the key word here. Does anyone really care other than us that you won a race? Even the nationals, who cares if you win other than us, we all still have to get up Monday morning and go to work. Does not change your life a bit as far as I know.

BTW…stuck in an airport…had some free time.

[Big Don]

How's that jive with the OSY-400 position from Region 7?

You're in the Big League now, Don. Expect the heat to rise a little bit. Congrats. They say the best leaders are the ones that don't want the position. Ed.

See Dean's post..."Race day cost issue not valid for voting down proposal 21"

Run bigger classes 3 times or even 4 boat classes 3 times... might just pull a few more boats in.

[PURPLE HAZE]

DON is right my son is 6 and he starts baseball and games are on saturday i have to work to support my family so will have a hard time getting to games i would love to come back racing but cant see the money with the time i have to do it started racing rc boats and they give away motors and boats at the end of the year to the champs and then they draw names and you get great stuff i cant help with this one but you are right tuff place to be ps hi donny

[greybeard]

Definition Please...

What does the number 35 represent in proposal 21? By that I mean what are participants? Entries? legal starters? Drivers earning points?

[ryan_4z]

The number of drivers earning points in a class in the previous racing season.

[Jeff Brewster 59s]

costs and kids

This probably should be a post of its own but it's relevant.
Like I said before, we have to keep the families in this...it is our bread and butter!

Dana's race (alexandria, ky) is a great one and he found a way to keep the race from becoming a looser for our club. But, the problem is the racers pick up the slack in cost.
I ran 25ssh for two days, Justin ran Jsr, Jsh, Axsr & Axsh for three days, and Ryan ran Jsr & Jsh for three . Sure we had a blast and got a lot of seat time for the boys but it cost us 362.00 in entry fees!!! A dad with two sons is going to have to make a lot more than me to keep up with that every weekend. He will most likely be more intelligent than me and figure out he is loosing his butt and find a sport that is profitable.

I bet if you sampled people that have quit...the majority will say...Economics
It just plain becomes not worth it.

We traveled to Oshkosh this summer and it cost 950.00! Heck, we even slept in the van when we arrived Saturday morning. ie...we were as thrifty as possible, but tolls and fuel kill ya! Thank God we had a wonderful time and that made it worth it.

Sure dont know how much we can afford this year....like I tell my sons....."this sport is all about money", and that is a sad lesson to teach. I am gettin' old and tired of being broke when October comes.

My sons, wife and i have been able barely to get the boys on the water by scrimping. (running used omc's and boats and building our own) The boys are getting big quick, so where do we go from here??? How many 4000.00 Sidewinders will we need to stay competitive??? Oohhh and I better figure that out quick cause my two daughters at 5 & 6 think our racing is the greatest and want to race!

So many things can pull the kids away. My sons are into baseball like Don's. Justin at age 13 has played since he was 4 and is a darn good short stop. He is on a constantly state championship caliber team. But i see the same in his coaches, they want to win at any cost and could care less about Justin's racing. All they know is he is missing another weekend tournament and usually sits on the bench for a while after a racing weekend. He will have to make a painful choice real soon.

Reducing classes has always been a tough subject. Heck, we were doing this back in the eighties....remember? This is a old subject, re-hashed a million times.
Everyone on this site that takes the time to type their opinions care about this sport. I respect each and every one of your opinions even though I may not agree with them all.
Let's all remember to be respectful of one another and avoid making personal slams....that doesn't get us anywhere.
Thanks for reading, Jeff