APBA Annual Meeting Agenda

[Charlie Pater]

Csh/r

Steve French vision of classes 200_?

STOCK:
A-----becomes>current AXS. Add the new "detuned/mild ported" 15?HOT-ROD (restrict as needed). (Current A-Stock/OMC unrestricted moves to A-MOD with FAH.)

B-----current 15 HOT-ROD on probation. Add new 15 HOT-ROD to try and save the old motor.........(Move to 25MOD if not...see MOD below)

25SSH/R--Current motors. Add the new 20 HOT-ROD. Change to "B" if...
20SSH---Current motor.
CSH/R--- Current motor. Add 202D+E Probationary.(might pull some OSY-400 racers).
DSH/R---Current motors. Add/combine with> D-CLASSIC. STOCK Nissan/Tohatsu added.

19P

Steve French----------Good luck Folks!!! Keep us POSTED!

Steve - Some good ideas. I do have a concern about adding 202s to the CSH class. There are very few 202s in the country and they are no longer available from Japan. Most of them are "river motors" maybe one or two run at the OSY nationals. Plus the likely possibility that 202s may dominate the class, I believe it is not worth it to add them to the CSH mix. If anything, we need to encourage the use of motors that are currently available as new.

I do like Ron Hill's origional proposal of using Yamato 80 motors as they come from Japan. That is no lower unit shaping or propshaft change, origional type propellers, and propshaft depth specified. These requirements, if applied to the 302s now available, would level the playing field for new racers and they could become very competitive without a very high investment. I do recognise this would now add a new class which we do not need but it is something to consider when planning for the long term - possibly a replacement for when the Yamato 80s no longer have parts availability. Actually, the 302 run box stock with the two blade prop and run at an established prop shaft depth to be competitive with the 80s might work under the current 20ssh class. Just an idea.

Charlie

[Nilsen Racing]

Agree we don't need two A classes

I agree with Ed, we do not need two A classes, but as has been stated AXS is a J class and not a Stock class. I'm not trying to say we should eliminate AXS or the J class, but maybe better stated, we do not need two J classes either.

Correct me if I am wrong, but nationally there were over 70 ASR's and under 40 AXS runabouts that competed in APBA sactioned races in 2005. And just under 100 ASH's and just under 70 AXS hydro in 2005. Maybe more AXS's competed on weekends in some of the mid-west regions, but according to the numbers and in particular, out west, no. In Region 10 (in my mind) we have competitive and strong ASH and ASR classes...the young and the under 170 lb. crowd. We also have a handful of J racers competing at each event. Our AXS class has been (with a couple of excepts) like K-Pro, more of a transitional class between J and A for a number of our younger racers. Or a class for our (lack of a better word) overweight under 14 year olds...to big for J, to young for A kids.

Maybe I'm selfish, but even though in the northwest we run a number of these so called OMC-A classes...only a few Mercurys on the left coast guys...I cringe when I hear and read people wanting to move the existing A class to Mod or restricting them and move AXS (mercury) to A. When you talk safety, the AXS classes (like K-Pro) has had a place in Region 10 (maybe different in other regions) as a transition class between J and A. And the existing A class seems to be doing just fine nationally on its own thank you.

Just my thoughts.
Jim

[Matt Dagostino]

Leave AXSH/AXSR ALONE.........................

[csh2z]Do we really want to get rid of the AX class though. I think that it has a place in Stock outboard, which is where it should be. Actually, we can't eliminate the AXS class, it's in the J category. The AXS class is not in our jurisdiction



The J Class Committee is doing a fine job directing our J Classes. They are observant and quick to act when necessary. If the SORC gets there hands on the J Classes chances are they will screw them up. The SORC has enough on there plate to deal with now. Leave the J Classes in the hands of the few who only have 'one' agenda..............the kids.


J Dad

[hagerl8m]

classes

I'm not saying do away with the Ax classes, i agree there needs to be a stepping stone between J and A, but why not have anther place for the Mecrury to run. I don't want the A weight to get dropped, but why not restrict the OMCs? The A class is running much faster than it should be. So whats wrong with slowing it down a little?



Christopher

[csh2z]

Ax

Matt, I wasn't implying that anything be changed in the AX classes. We sure could use a strong voice on the commission your participation would be appreciated.

[14-H]

I agree with Ed (for once) let's revist it.

Don: It hasn't been 90 years yet. Ed.

[14-H]

Do we really want to get rid of the AX class though. I think that it has a place in *** The AXS class is not in our jurisdiction.

I think with a class-reduction proposal, we could get it back. Ed.

[14-H]

C Stock Hydro

I do have a concern about adding 202s to the CSH class. *** I believe it is not worth it to add them to the CSH mix. If anything, we need to encourage the use of motors that are currently available as new.
***
Charlie

I totally agree with this. So, in exchange for not legalizing the 202s, you guys are okay with slowly phasing in some restrictions on the 102 so that the 302 is the engine of choice in this class, right?

Mike: Add this to the agenda. Ed.

[14-H]

I agree with Ed, we do not need two A classes, ***Jim

Actually, there are four: AXS, A Stock, Formula A, and K Pro.



Further thought: And then there are five for the 102: C Stock, 20 Stock, C Mod, 25R and OSY 400. Whew! Isn't it legal in RB too?

What the hell is going on here, anyway????

[Charlie Pater]

[QUOTE=14-H]I totally agree with this. So, in exchange for not legalizing the 202s, you guys are okay with slowly phasing in some restrictions on the 102 so that the 302 is the engine of choice in this class, right?



I don't want to dredge up an old discussion of 102 vs 302. That combination was fought and lost a long time ago when the CSH and C2H classes were combined.

To get my major point maybe you should read the rest of my post. Neither the 102 or the 302 are run "as new". We allow speed and other modifications that are costly like lower unit shaping, prop shaft changes, and 3 blade propellers. One of the reasons new racers have difficulty becoming competitive in "stock" outboard classes is that motors "off the shelf" are not competitive.

Charlie

[STEVE FRENCH]

Revised my "SURVIVAL SOUP" after rethinking it. ( and the wine has cleared out.... )
I don't really think much will come of my prediction, but keep in mind, most AFFORDABLE 2-stroke "Fish'n/stock" motor production ended in 2005. I really think we need to look at what is still PLENTIFUL and utilize it........ASAP.

Another thing is to not look at how changes will affect "me" and "my" class, as much as how changes will affect the current J drivers when their "my" age.

I have a 30x60 warehouse that I've started to fill with what ever motors from below that I can find from the local marinas for the future. Found one place with about (20) 3-cyl OMCs/(4-5)45 OMCs/several 31 OMCs ... Will make avail if they come my way
I already got all their 22 OMCs......

Respectfully----------19P/Steve French

I edited this out last night out of fear of being DRAGGED behind the BUDWIESER BEER WAGON and being TAR'D+FEATHERED, Drawn+Quartered, Walked-the-PLANK, tied to a Fire-Ant mound with Honey smeared on my BUTT
But I've had a couple beers and Beth just walked in with a bottle of wine So here it goes again...Gotta make this quick..she just flashed me....

Steve French VISION/PREDICTION/SURVIVAL SOUP...... of classes 200_?

J and J PRO--Current motors. Add the new 13/15CI. HOT-ROD (restricted?)

STOCK:
A-----becomes>current AXS. Add the new "detuned/mild ported" 15?HOT-ROD (restrict as needed). (Current A-Stock/OMC unrestricted moves to A-MOD with FAH. See MOD below)

B-----current motors. Add the stock/closed up 22 Merc and OMC from A-MOD (where it's not competative) that was add to A-MOD on 2004 ballot. I ran mine as a prototype in BSH at Spring Franklin 2005 with 4 Hot-Rods and it was "in-the-mix/hunt" placing second to Mike T./41P. I did much testing with these and Archie Lewis' very strong 15 Hot-Rod on my Altralight "mold boat" and the Hot-rod was consistantly 1-1 1/2 MPH faster (OMC-61MPH/Hot-Rod 62MPH) so it should not runaway. I feel these stock 22 CI. reed valve motors are fair competition with the rotary valve 15 CI. Hot-Rod. Add new 15 HOT-ROD (or new 20 CI. Hot-Rod/restricted).

25SSH/R--Current motors. Add the new 20 HOT-ROD. (toss XS restictor if/as the HOT-ROD gains speed?)
20SSH---Current motors.
CSH/R--- Current motors. Add the 31 CI OMC mid 80's thru 2005 that looks like it will accept the A-OMC foot-probationary. P.S.> I have run this foot on my 25MOD/OMC and it is tough! (going to try that same foot on my C-MOD Merc next.) Best part...this foot is now available!
DSH/R---Current motors. Add/combine with> D-CLASSIC. STOCK Nissan/Tohatsu added.

MOD:
A-MOD----Becomes> FAH and current A-STOCK OMC/unresticted. (Adjust weights/hights as needed. May hurt/sting at first but.....(If push comes to shove, the FAH guys will need another block. I have a FAH I bought from Carl H./80S so "I feel your pain").
25MOD--Current motors. Add current 15 HOT-ROD (A-MOD). Add new "detuned/mild port" 20 HOT-ROD w/chamber pipe(s). Runabouts also.
B-MOD---current motors. Add 25SSH MERC./unrestricted (lower/add lbs/B-MOD boat/ as needed?) Put restrictor back if needed .....All ready legal in runabout.
C-MOD---current motors. Add FORMULA XS(25xs-MOD on C-MOD BOAT)
D-MOD---current motors. Add Nissan/Tohatsu-Bass (chamber pipe(s)probationary). Look at (AOF) Yamaha?
FE-------current motors. Add any under 50CI. "FISH'N" motor you can hang onto under 99MPH!

Beth, Quick!--Lock the doors! Load the motor-home! We're on the run!!!! Bring the wine! ......Do you hear elephants screaming/mating?!!

Finally, with the end of AFFORDABLE 2-stroke "fish'n motor" production in 2005, I feel we need to look hard at what has been available and is still plentiful, and utilize it........ASAP.

Permission granted to use any of the above for; Proposals,target practice,toilet paper,etc...................
19P Steve French---Good luck Folks!!! Keep us POSTED! Sun burns optional

Beth just got home......time to finish the wine........and there's another FLASH!!

[14-H]

To get my major point maybe you should read the rest of my post. Neither the 102 or the 302 are run "as new". **
Charlie

Charlie: I get it. But there's no way you can't allow blue printing and gear foot shaping on the 302 and then expect people to buy it when, even with blue printing and shaping, it's very difficult to beat the old motor.

motors "off the shelf" are not competitive

They're not competitive because they're being expected to compete with motors that have been blue printed, tweaked and maxed out for years prior to the new motor being introduced and the old owners refuse to allow the old stuff to be made to go the speed they went before the changes (translation: slowed down) in order to allow the new motors to compete. This is true not only in C but also in the A classes. In my opinion, this is the "big picture" John Runne is looking for.

The 102 vs 302 compatibility-horse may have had the crap beat out of it previously. But she ain't dead yet. Ed.

[888race]

giving enough time

the 302 will compete with the 102 and the 202 ask 2 time natinal champ in osy billy allen

[Charlie Pater]

They're not competitive because they're being expected to compete with motors that have been blue printed, tweaked and maxed out for years prior to the new motor being introduced and the old owners refuse to allow the old stuff to be made to go the speed they went before the changes (translation: slowed down) in order to allow the new motors to compete. This is true not only in C but also in the A classes. In my opinion, this is the "big picture" John Runne is looking for.

The 102 vs 302 compatibility-horse may have had the crap beat out of it previously. But she ain't dead yet. Ed.

Ed - I think you make my point the less "tweeking" allowed the easer it is for a new racer. Remember, I am looking at this purely from the viewpoint of making it easiest for a new racer to enter the sport and be competitive from an equipment parity standpoint. The fewer motor changes allowed the less of a learning curve required to be competitive. I agree, it is very difficult to bring a new motor into a class and make it perform the same as the old motor. That is why I was against combining the 102 and 302 into the "C" class. I believe is not possible to make a parity by tweeking one or the other. Each motor has its own advantages and dissadvantages and handicaping one or the other is bowing to the desires of the people that have the most votes. I hope this discussion does not go the way of the BSR discussion.

My only point is that, for the long term health of Stock Racing, we need to have classes that have low up front equipment costs AND the learning curve for equipment parity is short. Maybe the new Hot Rod motor will help to accomplish that objective.

[hagerl8m]

agreed

Charlie I agree with you on the fact that we need to make it cheaper to get into racing. That is one major turn off to people i know that re interested in racing, most say the cost isn't worth it. Right now snowcross and motocross are the fastest growing motor sports? Maybe because its really cheap to get into the class, i hope that the new hot rod helps with that. But one of the major reasons sports go is there is new equipment. When the bike industry comes out with a new bike, the sport mandates that the new bike will be used. Alot like the snowcross, i've seen this sport grow very quickly in my area, a random guy or girl can go by a stock sled and race, nothing else. And snowcross also changes its equipment every few years. I know that most people would agree that this idea is hard to handle. But maybe the future of our sport is down this road, trying to gain factory support again. I know i'm very vocal about the BSR issue, and some people are right, its broke, but so is the entire sport. How many new drivers have we gained in the past 10 years, how many have we lost? Isn't it time there was some kind of change?

Christopher