APBA Annual Meeting Agenda

[Joe J]

A rule suggesting the JSH and JSR run first race of the day. This way they always get to run and get a shot at the best water and least wind of the day.

While I agree with your thought, I think iit would be bad for a race committee to have ANY portion of a race schedule mandated to them.

We typically do this, but not always.

Joe

[Joe J]

Axsh

Had the class remained in the Stock Outboard category, it would have been a novice class. John Runne 2-Z

The above is a response from John Runne in another thread concerning AXSH.

I believe the Stock category needs a "Novice" class. There needs to be a place for people to start at a less then national caliber level, as well as a stepping stone for J drivers.

Would it be possible to bring AXSH (and R ) back into the stock category for this purpose?

Joe Johnson

[ryan_4z]

A rule suggesting the JSH and JSR run first race of the day. This way they always get to run and get a shot at the best water and least wind of the day.

That is a great idea, between those two classes I could probably sleep in another hour!! Seriously, I agree, they should be run early for the reasons you stated, but, you can't run them both in the same set do to motor changes. And, like Joe said, you really can't make a rule forcing race commitees to do this. I think it is somthing that all race commitees should take into consideration though. The reasons you stated are very well founded. I always thought that J should be run early so we could get it out of the way(even when I was a J driver). It would make sense to put JSH up first thing when you can, as it is more widely run, and a bigger class than JSR. That way you do garauntee the J kids a chance to run. I'm just not sure you could make it a rule.

[Sean Augustine]

branching off of Dana and Ed

I think your ideas in reference to HOC points are right on target - drivers should get rewarded for competing against larger fields.

So,why not carry this to race scoring? In a "system" I came up with,you get more points for competing against more drivers at every race.

Quick summary: 12 or more boats get scored as is normally done now. If there are fewer than 12 boats, you get scored from the "bottom up".

Example: 5 boats show up for a class. At the end of the day, the fifth place boats gets 12th place points, fourth gets 11th place points, third gets 10th place points, etc.

Sean

[G Stillwill]

Sean why your sustem wouldnt be fair case in point take a driver and boat that is a front running outfit goes to a race and gets a first but only gets 8th place points because there are only 5 boats take the same boat and driver and goes to the next race and gets a first but there are 12 boats so gets first place points. Now this shows that the driver and outfit is capable of winning if there was a 100 boats at a race but with your system because he races in a race with less then 12 boats and wins he gets less points. Now if this driver is running for points he is going to pick and choose where and when he runs to get the most points.

[Sean Augustine]

Hi George

Sean why your sustem wouldnt be fair case in point take a driver and boat that is a front running outfit goes to a race and gets a first but only gets 8th place points because there are only 5 boats take the same boat and driver and goes to the next race and gets a first but there are 12 boats so gets first place points. Now this shows that the driver and outfit is capable of winning if there was a 100 boats at a race but with your system because he races in a race with less then 12 boats and wins he gets less points. Now if this driver is running for points he is going to pick and choose where and when he runs to get the most points.

I would answer like this: even if you have a front-running rig, it is still harder to win against more competition for a variety of racing reasons (crowded starts, gun jumpers, etc.). Consequently, you should get more points for beating a full field.

It has to be a fundamental shift in the way we view point scoring. I am not "punishing" the driver who races against less competition; I am "rewarding" the driver who races against more competition.

To your second point, couldn't someone pick and choose their races, under our current scoring system, to insure they were running aginst less competition, and still get the 400 points?

Talk to you soon,
Sean

[Joe J]

So with this system we would penalize drivers who do not have as many boats to race against. This would be one more nail in the coffin for smaller regions.

Joe

I think your ideas in reference to HOC points are right on target - drivers should get rewarded for competing against larger fields.

So,why not carry this to race scoring? In a "system" I came up with,you get more points for competing against more drivers at every race.

Quick summary: 12 or more boats get scored as is normally done now. If there are fewer than 12 boats, you get scored from the "bottom up".

Example: 5 boats show up for a class. At the end of the day, the fifth place boats gets 12th place points, fourth gets 11th place points, third gets 10th place points, etc.

Sean

[Haüenstein]

So with this system we would penalize drivers who do not have as many boats to race against. This would be one more nail in the coffin for smaller regions.

Joe

In the coffin of smaller regions, and smaller local races.

[dholt]

This idea of weighting points based on number of boats in heat has been brought up before.

While I'd like to be in favor of it, I'm not.

I'd say 90% of races don't have a full field. You can't control how many boats are going to show up to race against. Not your fault. Weighting the points seems to be micro-managing the topic a little too much.

I agree that beating a field of 10 or 11 other boats is mostly easier than beating 3-4 others. And you're at risk for scoring far fewer points in a full field race. But then again, you might be racing against 10 scrubs while the 5 boat race is filled with 5 studs. Higher numbers doesn't always mean tougher competition/acheivement.

My proposal to weight HOC points for High Point awards based on participation is an attempt to bring some consistency. For all other major titles (Nationals, Winter Nats, Divisionals) you have to have certain standards in order to receive the full HOC points. So why not with National High Points?

Now, some might say "I race in a class with only 30 boats nationally, and I'm being penalized with fewer HOC points if I win High Points." Response: Move into a more highly populated class or just live with it.

[RuthieRae]

Not as hard as it sounds.....

I agree w/ Kristi...go back to the old start rule. If we did it for so many years that way, someone must know how to figure the first legal boat. It really isn't that difficult. And, I have timed, it isn't that difficult either. When you have people who know what they are doing, there isn't a problem. Competition records they are, but even if you are starting via the first legal boat, you are still competing right? There are still probably a group of boats crossing the start line at or near the same time regardless if they are 5 or 10 seconds late, they are still competing......against each other.....as they have been doing all season right? It isn't a timer's nightmare, at least not in region 10, as they (our timers and scorers) don't like the new rule either. But, everyone has their differences.....

As far as the standard course, some of us who don't live in states with huge lakes that will actually allow us to run on them can't go with a standardized course. It would eliminate a lot of our race sites that are getting more and more difficult to run on as it is. Silver Lake we barely sqeak the course on with the outside course marker requirments as it is......

[bill boyes]

RuthieRay. you still did not tell me way we should go back to the old way. Why do want to go back to the old way? Why do you think it is better?

I agree that the pro/stock/mod standardized 3/4 mile course leaves much to be desired. Russ Dodge pointed it out at Oroville to me that the turns could be made much better. The OPC approved course. well, never mind I won't go there.

[RuthieRae]

Really, I don't understand why we changed it in the first place, but I think that if we are going to be changing rules, we should be starting over with the records....especially starting rules. I think that going back will put us back on course for setting records, and it would benefit the driver because the change was made mid stream, and the records were set at dead zero. Now, keep in mind, I have set records since the new rule was adapted, but I still believe they should have grandfathered or not instated the rule if they are changing the way records are being set. This is why I think it should go back, it is only fair to the driver to be competing for records in the same manner the established record was set.

Russ is great w/courses by the way.

[dholt]

Records...no Dice

This clock start issue all comes down to records.

Competition Records are the most overrated, overhyped event in racing.

We all have heard the saying...records are meant to be broken.

You've got courses all over the country...different atmospheric conditions, elevation, etc...

Then the biggest difference...the level of the competition in the race the record is set. Let's see...I'll attempt a record against a field of 3 other boats...or a field of 11 others. Hmmm...

And don't force me to get a good start. I'll just mosey over the starting line whenever I get around to it. Start the race then.

Ask Dan Marino or Barry Bonds how much their records mean to them as opposed to what they never were able to do...win the Super Bowl or World Series.


D.

[RuthieRae]

I really doubt if you mosey over the start finish line that you will be the first legal boat across, unless of course you are paying everyone's entry fees? Even if you can start whenever you want, you still have other starters on the course forcing you to make a decent if not perfect start whether or not the clock starts at zero or when the first legal boat crosses. 11 or 4, depending on who they are can cause the same grief on a record course, equally.

Yes, there are race courses all over the country with different conditions, and we can travel to all of those places if we want a record bad enough, but we can't change the rules if we want. Apples and oranges in my opinion. Nationals are a bit over rated as well because the best of the best sometimes don't show up. HOC, luck at times I think, depending on whom you are racing agains in your own regions. We could argue the point of overratedness in every category of boat racing really. An accomplishment of any kind, and I don't think our Nationals compare in the slightest to a Superbowl or World Series because that is all competitors over periods of time, not some competitors over a period of a week. National high points, again can be argued down the list to who and where you run.
Just my opinion, I don't think necessarily the rule is bad, just the way it was administered.

[Big Don]

The race should start when the clock hit’s 0, end of story.