A Plan for the Future

[Brian10s]

I think this would be a big mistake. Just because the categories use the same motors, doesn't mean we have to co-ordinate our plan for the future together. The two categories are philosophically different, and these differenced must be respected. Therefore the categories must be run separately. We race together, yes, but we govern separately. There is a line between stock and mod that must not be crossed.

Ryan,
I do not think anyone is stating that the 2 categories join together. What is being mentioned is a close working relationship in order to enhance the difference in both. Case in point, the subject that started this whole mess, the 25XS. It is not a legal mod motor, but an experimental and could be experimental for the next 20 years. However, if a plan/ agreement was made between the 2 categories, then the net effect to the class participant would be next to nothing. What is being proposed is a process that can be used many years down the road with other engines that are still vital now but everybody know will eventually be on the block (Y80 and OMC for example). With a precident set and a better working relationship, other motors/ classes can be offered a different future than either chopped off or left to languish and die.

[mercguy]

Could do the same with combining CSR and 25SSR too. That would cut out one class.

that would not work out very well for the Hot Rod or Merc powered boats, as a TRUE CSR would make a HUGE hole in the turns for the smaller boats, much more than the Yamato 25SSR's already do now, with the 70lb weight difference and 2 more feet of boat in the water. Let alone, making inspection any hardier than it already is......

[DougMc]

that would not work out very well for the Hot Rod or Merc powered boats, as a TRUE CSR would make a HUGE hole in the turns for the smaller boats, much more than the Yamato 25SSR's already do now, with the 70lb weight difference and 2 more feet of boat in the water. Let alone, making inspection any hardier than it already is......

Its already being done in 25SSR.

[ryan_4z]

Why not combine the 25ssh class with CSH, lower their prop height to 1 3/8.
We never see any 25s run till we go to the Nationals. We usually have one 25 show up at the races in in the southeast regions and they can't run. If we combine them with CSH it would make the class even bigger and better.

I really don't think we want to make a mutt class out of CSH. If the 25 guys can't bring the boats to run, then maybe its time to think about letting the class go. Im not saying kill it, I don't hate 25! Just let it die on its own. Stock Outboard cannot be a "find a place to run anything" category. Single motor classes breed greater competition. Even in Mod, BMH, CMH, FEH(almost everyone runs the OMC triple), are the best classes. Everyone pretty much runs the same motor. There are only a few Mercs left in CMH, at least that compete regularly in APBA. These are esentially single motor classes, and they are the biggest and most competitive in the Mod category.

[mercguy]

better explained.....

Its already being done in 25SSR.

atleast in 25SSR the weights are the same (right now anyways), so no need to change the scale setup (if not a digital unit) for the CSR, which weighs in at 475lbs, 70lbs more than the 25SSR. Besides, CSR was mean for a more heavier guy, versus 25SSR for a lighter guy, thus 2 different classes.

I wonder what the outcome would be, if a CSR (475lbs) blasted through a 25SSR (405lbs)...........this is not within the subject matter, but i just through it in.....

[ryan_4z]

Ryan,
I do not think anyone is stating that the 2 categories join together. What is being mentioned is a close working relationship in order to enhance the difference in both. Case in point, the subject that started this whole mess, the 25XS. It is not a legal mod motor, but an experimental and could be experimental for the next 20 years. However, if a plan/ agreement was made between the 2 categories, then the net effect to the class participant would be next to nothing. What is being proposed is a process that can be used many years down the road with other engines that are still vital now but everybody know will eventually be on the block (Y80 and OMC for example). With a precident set and a better working relationship, other motors/ classes can be offered a different future than either chopped off or left to languish and die.

The 25xs is the only motor in Stock(and the Merc 15) that is not also legal in mod. I just don't think that this is somthing that need be planned out. Mod always uses the same motors as stock for its classes. And I don't think that Mod should necesarrily have to find a place to use all the old stock motors. That is when mod will become the "dumping ground" that you don't want it to be. I think that the Mod commission is smart enough to decide what motors they will use in what classes, without having to be guided along by the plan that we as Stockers set out for ourselves.

[mercguy]

In the last few years, the SORC has approved the manufacture and use of aftermarket pipes and pistons for this class.

and the "coil issue" will have to be addressed also........

[Tim Weber]

Ryan,

I am saving your Dad from saying this, go to work.

Seriously, good discussion, lets keep it going.

Tim

[stu_racing]

i have a couple things to add. with the Y80's they can either be moved down to BSH or moved up to CSH. if you move the Y80's down then you have to consider the differences that already exist. the Y80's are a heavier motor and larger boat. are the HR's going to preform well with these boats in the corner with them? or is the answer lowering minimum weight with the Y80's but also lowering the motor height to make the HR's competitive? so if you go the other way and put the Y80 in CSH then i believe the Y80's need to have an even lower weight minimum to help match these up. but the problem with that is CSH pretty much always has a good turnout everywhere so having more boats in C is not an asset that i can see.
as for 25ssh i don't see why it should be changed. it does have a low boat count in many parts but filling up CSH feild with this class is not going to be safe, especially in the differences that each rig turns. so let the 25xs die and let the HR's replace them, if they do.
the way i see it is that BSH needs to grow. it was always a class for imbetween ASH and CSH. so put 20ssh in BSH but lower the weight minimum and lowering the height. i lost about 3 mph at being 1/2" under what the legal height is now on my Y80
just trying to help this re-structuring go through

[ryan_4z]

We shouldn't change 20ssH at all. With low numbers in BSH, 20ssH is the in-between class. A, 20, and C are the classes that should be left alone, they are all healthy. American Hot Rod will breathe life back into B and 25(or 15 and B, whatever we end up calling them).

[G Stillwill]

As Ryan said with the Hotrod company back in bussiness the B class will pick up. As far as running the B with the 20 ssh you can if you got a death wish. They leave such big holes in the turns a B would get lost even if you get out in front by the second lap the waters so torn up it wouldnt matter. I hate to even follow a heat of 20's and C's with the A or the B. This was proved when the 20 hotrod tries to run 25 runabout with the rice burners.

[mercguy]

i have a couple things to add. with the Y80's they can either be moved down to BSH or moved up to CSH. if you move the Y80's down then you have to consider the differences that already exist. the Y80's are a heavier motor and larger boat. are the HR's going to preform well with these boats in the corner with them? or is the answer lowering minimum weight with the Y80's but also lowering the motor height to make the HR's competitive? so if you go the other way and put the Y80 in CSH then i believe the Y80's need to have an even lower weight minimum to help match these up. but the problem with that is CSH pretty much always has a good turnout everywhere so having more boats in C is not an asset that i can see.
as for 25ssh i don't see why it should be changed. it does have a low boat count in many parts but filling up CSH feild with this class is not going to be safe, especially in the differences that each rig turns. so let the 25xs die and let the HR's replace them, if they do.
the way i see it is that BSH needs to grow. it was always a class for imbetween ASH and CSH. so put 20ssh in BSH but lower the weight minimum and lowering the height. i lost about 3 mph at being 1/2" under what the legal height is now on my Y80
just trying to help this re-structuring go through

the 20SSH class is NOT going to be restructured at all, neither is the CSH class. These are (2) of the biggest stock classes we have. The CSH class is probably the most secure stock class right now, as motors are still available "new" and lots of "used" ones out there also......

Hot Rods and Yamatos DO NOT mix very well together..........

[mercguy]

As Ryan said with the Hotrod company back in bussiness the B class will pick up. As far as running the B with the 20 ssh you can if you got a death wish. They leave such big holes in the turns a B would get lost even if you get out in front by the second lap the waters so torn up it wouldnt matter. I hate to even follow a heat of 20's and C's with the A or the B. This was proved when the 20 hotrod tries to run 25 runabout with the rice burners.

ah, come on George, you think these Yamatos dig a big hole, you outta try going out in 20 or C hydro after the "Crackerboxes" run their heat of raceing!!!!

[Xracer]

OK, now I'm even more curious!

Ed, the following questions are not in any way an attempt to question your leadership or committment to outboard racing nor to take any exception to your role as SORC Chair this year. They are sincerely being asked for my own understanding of the process. Your Propeller articles are likewise very much appreciated.

It is very difficult to develop a plan under the post APBA 2000 reforms. All of the commissioners are elected at the Region meetings and they are usually elected upon a variety of factors that have nothing to do with a future vision for the category. Sometimes they are elected just because they can attend the annual meeting or because no one else wants the job. Some Regions have commissioners that never come to the annual meeting.

So how often does the SORC meet?
Who sets the agenda?
Are the meetings virtual (via conference call)?
How often have they met this year (since last annual meeting)?
Are the commissioners elected to staggered terms?

Under the old system, the VP ran on a platform that could be weighed by the members and then chosen.

And why can't happen now if the Chairman is chosen by the members of the commission?

John is right that 2 years was too short a time to do anything. But the idea that the VP is elected on a platform and then chooses commissioners to help him carry it out once elected seems to be much more organized.

Right now, commissioners come from all over the country with a hodge-podge of ideas about what they want to accomplish and it is very difficult to form any plan. Moreover, this system is very prone to "protectionism" whereby commissioners are much more influenced by the members in their region and much more likely to be hostile to any change than they were before the new system was adopted.

Nothing intrinsically wrong with the Chair being elected by the commission but I still prefer to chose my commissioner(s) at the Regional level so that my agenda has some hope of being considered.


What I have tried to do as the chairman who is chosen by the commission is to set time aside at the annual meeting to break into groups of commissioners and develop lists of "projects" that need to be addressed and then come back together as a commission to address these issues. This seems to have been relatively effective in setting road map for things that need to be addressed. I've also always started out my annual meetings with an overview of class structure and participation with a look at numbers and trends in order to "set the mood" for a forest-for-the-trees type meeting.

So, what were the "projects" you assigned to these small groups to work on? Do they work on them throughout the year or only at the Annual Meeting? What have they accomplished this year?

Of course the problem always is that the Racing Commission is made up of racers who first want to race, second will assist in running races and third address jobs that have been assigned to them at the annual meeting. I'm certainly not casting blame upon anyone for this problem. It's just the way a volunteer organization works especially when the volunteers are addicted to something other than what they're being asked to do.

Not sure that I get the drift of the problem. What's wrong with racers having a first priority of wanting to race?

If you are saying that they agree to be on the SORC but will neither do what's assigned because they are just "volunteers" nor follow through on their responsibilities then simply give us those facts and we will see to it that these rat bas***** don't serve again.

Thanks in advance for your response to these questions.

[stu_racing]

let me clarify my personal stance, i don't think anything should be changed for the hydros in stock outboard. runabouts i don't run and frankly don't want to comment on because i am so unknowledgable on them. i was only pointing out possibilities that could be thrown around. so i appologize if i offended anyone by putting their class in the "wrong" spot and frankly i run 20ssh and will be running csh next year and find both classes should stay the same. i only wish we had more 20ssh's running on a regular basis in canada.