A Plan for the Future

[ryan_4z]

Sean, I agree, I don't know that there is really anyone out there that would oppose Dana's class structure. So, I think that this year the SORC should adopt it, or somthing similar, as their goal to be reached within say 5 years, depending on the Hot Rod situation. Hot Rod seems like they will be ready to go within a year or two.

[Brian10s]

Another point

Here is a question for all.

Before we get tied into putting motors in classes and renaming classes, should we not look at what speed ranges we want in each class?
I have no problem with the getting down to 10 classes and the A,B,C, D structure. But here is what we have now (and let's not nick pick on the speeds that much. If I am off some, oh well)

ASH - running what 55 or so
BSH/15HR - in the 60-63 range
20SSH - 65-68
CSH - 66-69ish
DSH - 80 or so
25SSH - 70-73

And no one can tell me that a C and 20 are not close, around the course. I have studied lap times from Franklin of the winners between the 2 classes and the C was only 1-2 seconds faster per lap.

The question is, what should be the base speed range for each of the A,B,C,D classes. We all know they will continue to get faster, they always do. If a 20HR runs C&20 speeds on a much smaller boat, is that what we want our A kids graduating into, a 10-15 mph jump. Shouldn't we try and keep the speed ranges of our classes and the differences between then somwhat of a staircase?

[mercguy]

The issue of restricted C's being run in 20ssH has been brought up now a few times. I think it is important to bring to light, I am the only person I know of that is running this regularly on the east coast. There are very few restricted C's running at all nationwide. I could be wrong, but I just don't know of any besides myself running regularly. The 20ssH class is still popular only because of the Yamato 80.

As far as the speeds go, I dont care what anyone says, a 20ssH is about 3 to 4 mph slower than a C.

I agree...........

[mercguy]

Here is a question for all.

Before we get tied into putting motors in classes and renaming classes, should we not look at what speed ranges we want in each class?
I have no problem with the getting down to 10 classes and the A,B,C, D structure. But here is what we have now (and let's not nick pick on the speeds that much. If I am off some, oh well)

ASH - running what 55 or so
BSH/15HR - in the 60-63 range
20SSH - 65-68
CSH - 66-69ish
DSH - 80 or so
25SSH - 70-73

And no one can tell me that a C and 20 are not close, around the course. I have studied lap times from Franklin of the winners between the 2 classes and the C was only 1-2 seconds faster per lap.

The question is, what should be the base speed range for each of the A,B,C,D classes. We all know they will continue to get faster, they always do. If a 20HR runs C&20 speeds on a much smaller boat, is that what we want our A kids graduating into, a 10-15 mph jump. Shouldn't we try and keep the speed ranges of our classes and the differences between then somwhat of a staircase?

20SSH 65-68MPH
CSH 66-69MPH

I better hang up my 20SSH and CSH shoes now!

[DougMc]

CSH Legal Motors

And no one can tell me that a C and 20 are not close, around the course. I have studied lap times from Franklin of the winners between the 2 classes and the C was only 1-2 seconds faster per lap.

If this is correct, and sadly in my CSH case this is correct, why not use the same legal motor structure for CSH as PRO currently has for OSY 400?

Legal CSH motors would be the Yamato 80, 102, 202 and 302 - aka OSY with weight limits and stock fuel regulations.

If a Yamato 80 is run, the driver could keep the same weight as the current 20SSH weight.

[mercguy]

If this is correct, and sadly in my CSH case this is correct, why not use the same legal motor structure for CSH as PRO currently has for OSY 400?

Legal CSH motors would be the Yamato 80, 102, 202 and 302 - aka OSY with weight limits and stock fuel regulations.

If a Yamato 80 is run, the driver could keep the same weight as the current 20SSH weight.

Doug, the 20SSH vs. CSH figures are not that close. Maybe on some short courses, the 20 is CLOSE to the CSH, but the CSH will whip the crap out of a 20, especially outta the turns. 3MPH is a HUGE difference! Also, no need to make inspections any more difficult than they already can be at the Nats!!!

[Charlie Pater]

Multiple Class Racing

I have been watching this forem very closely and need to make comments.

I believe our objectives in stock outboard should include maximizing participation at the minimum cost to the competitors. Which brings me to the possibility of marginalizing the 20ssh class by planning for elimination or diluting with motors other than Yamato.

Right now, a new racer or an old guy like me can bring one boat and one 102 or 302 to a race and race 3 classes without changing motor height (a time consuming task if it is done right). Thats a relitively small investment in boat, motor, trailer, and even propellers. In addition, minimal physical work is required for setup. Also, the amount of maintenance and testing required to prepare for and race 3 classes is much less than having additional boats and motors of other manufacturers.

My point is that we need to be very careful about mixing HR or Merc motors into what is now known and the 20ssh class. I just want to make it as easy as possible for someone to go a race and race most of the day with ease of setup and minimal investment.

Charlie

[Cameraboy]

The issue of restricted C's being run in 20ssH has been brought up now a few times. I think it is important to bring to light, I am the only person I know of that is running this regularly on the east coast. There are very few restricted C's running at all nationwide. I could be wrong, but I just don't know of any besides myself running regularly. The 20ssH class is still popular only because of the Yamato 80.

As far as the speeds go, I dont care what anyone says, a 20ssH is about 3 to 4 mph slower than a C.

Out in the upper left corner, the four fastest 20s this year were a couple of 80s, a restricted 302 and a restricted 102. Another 4-6 80s ran at various times. I think that confirms you observation. Daren - aren't you guys mostly 80s down south?

I think one reason we don't see many restricted C's in 20 is that you really have to have the right prop, and they can be a pain to switch back to a C consistently. The 80 is still the motor to beat.

That said, you can still be competitive with a restricted C; why not include it in the mix of available motors in a reformulated BSH class? I don't feel real strongly about it. What I do feel strongly about is having a class (one class, not 2 or 3) between A and C speed-wise.

[csh2z]

20ssh

In my opinion, the only thing the SORC should do with 20SSH is get the 102 & 302 out of this class as soon as possible (sorry Ryan). I guarantee that if we put the effort into this class, both the 102 & 302 would be able to dominate. The SORC should do nothing to revitalize the class either. We should not modify any parts of the Yamato 80 to keep them on the water. We have been running this class for a long time, we all got a great return over the years of our investment. That being said, the class should be run until participation is poor. Currently it is one of our strongest classes and that is great. I'm sure it will be around for years to come until attrition rears its head. I feel the same way about every class we have. If it is popular and motors are available it is a viable class. But if the participation dwindles and motors are not readily available then we must take action to replace the motor with something else or eliminate the class completely. Again we should not modify parts to resusitate a dying class. We are Stock Outboard and we need to get back to our roots. We have three viable motor manufacturers currently offering us motors for the classes we run. Yamato, Hot Rod & Mercury(through Dave Scott). Waiting in the wings for approval are the Bass bros. with their Tohatsu. We have a great oppurtunity to grow our sport but we must act responsibly. John 2-Z

[mercguy]

Out in the upper left corner, the four fastest 20s this year were a couple of 80s, a restricted 302 and a restricted 102. Another 4-6 80s ran at various times. I think that confirms you observation. Daren - aren't you guys mostly 80s down south?

I think one reason we don't see many restricted C's in 20 is that you really have to have the right prop, and they can be a pain to switch back to a C consistently. The 80 is still the motor to beat.

That said, you can still be competitive with a restricted C; why not include it in the mix of available motors in a reformulated BSH class? I don't feel real strongly about it. What I do feel strongly about is having a class (one class, not 2 or 3) between A and C speed-wise.

yep, there is only (1) restricted 102 running in 20SSH right now, Troy Christie, and he has that motor running very well, with a great prop. The rest of the 20's are all 80 powered..........

[mercguy]

In my opinion, the only thing the SORC should do with 20SSH is get the 102 & 302 out of this class as soon as possible (sorry Ryan). I guarantee that if we put the effort into this class, both the 102 & 302 would be able to dominate. The SORC should do nothing to revitalize the class either. We should not modify any parts of the Yamato 80 to keep them on the water. We have been running this class for a long time, we all got a great return over the years of our investment. That being said, the class should be run until participation is poor. Currently it is one of our strongest classes and that is great. I'm sure it will be around for years to come until attrition rears its head. I feel the same way about every class we have. If it is popular and motors are available it is a viable class. But if the participation dwindles and motors are not readily available then we must take action to replace the motor with something else or eliminate the class completely. Again we should not modify parts to resusitate a dying class. We are Stock Outboard and we need to get back to our roots. We have three viable motor manufacturers currently offering us motors for the classes we run. Yamato, Hot Rod & Mercury(through Dave Scott). Waiting in the wings for approval are the Bass bros. with their Tohatsu. We have a great oppurtunity to grow our sport but we must act responsibly. John 2-Z

I agree John, the 102 and 302 motors should be pulled from the 20SSH class and left where they belong, in C. There might have been a big decline in 20SSH awhile back, but that is not the case now. There are still plenty of 80 motors out there for the class to live for atleast 5yrs or more. The only problem with the 80 and parts, is the availability for coils............NONE available, so that would HAVE to be resolved!

[csh2z]

No coils?

that speaks to my point earlier. Why should we address it? What happens if other parts are no longer available? I suggest we do nothing. Let nature take its course. Attrition is the best argument for change. The class has had its day. I'm not saying kill it, just let it go. When it reaches the point of invalidation, it becomes probationary. At that point we decide what we will do to replace it or scrub it. Look what we have done to the 25SSR class. In order to not "potentially" lose a very small group of drivers, we artificially resusitated a dying class. The result is not more participation from actual 25'S but C2 Runabout. So C Runabout guys get to run twice(I know I'm simplifying). Why don't we scrap the very weak classes and run the stronger classes twice per day? The result would be better racing and more bang for your buck. John2-Z

[mercguy]

NLA parts......

that speaks to my point earlier. Why should we address it? What happens if other parts are no longer available? I suggest we do nothing. Let nature take its course. Attrition is the best argument for change. The class has had its day. I'm not saying kill it, just let it go. When it reaches the point of invalidation, it becomes probationary. At that point we decide what we will do to replace it or scrub it. Look what we have done to the 25SSR class. In order to not "potentially" lose a very small group of drivers, we artificially resusitated a dying class. The result is not more participation from actual 25'S but C2 Runabout. So C Runabout guys get to run twice(I know I'm simplifying). Why don't we scrap the very weak classes and run the stronger classes twice per day? The result would be better racing and more bang for your buck. John2-Z

John, I do not have a problem with attrition, etc, as long as their is a path for the outcast to go, besides to a sawhorse or "collectors".......

probably what I am getting at is relating to the MOD category. There needs to be some "tightropes" released in this category and let it be as MODIFIED means. This meaning all the motors no longer "legal" to race in STOCK be allowed in MOD, WITHOUT so many "technical restraints". Such as WHY does a Cmod Yamato have to run a Yamato foot?

anyways, as you guys and gals can see, Hydroracer.Net is a VERY VALUABLE asset to APBA and also AOF/NBRA for voicing concerns, opinions, and suggestions.

[sam]

..... so many "technical restraints". Such as WHY does a Cmod Yamato have to run a Yamato foot?

I completely agree with Daren on this. I've been wondering why the Yamato C foot rule was put in place and the best guess I can come up with was it was intended to be a cost minimizer .... it may have been a good idea when lower unit reshaping meant a bolt and some epoxy ... now with the beautiful machine work being put on them for hundreds of dollars, there is no cost savings in restricting the C Mod Yamatos to stock based Yamato lower units

Does anyone recall if there was another reason? Other lower units and gear ratios are not likely to significantly increase speeds, but they may bring in more racers

[Bob Dunlap]

Daren a lot of these restraints are done to help you and all the rest of the racers. We need to keep cost down where possible so we can all aford to race and be able to win. The very thing you mentioned was brought up for a vote to the Mod commisioners last year at the Nat. meeting. Any gear foot on any motor. The problem is we know the $1200? hatchet foot is a mile or two faster than the Yamato foot, so if the winning CM rig has the hatchet foot on it then you and I have to go out and buy one to be competitive. I have kind of over simplified it but I hope you get the idea. If you have a better idea write down and send it to your commisioner or John Read. I for one sure don't want to have to spend that kind of money to keep up so some of the rules may there to help us in areas we don't always think about.