A Plan for the Future

[David Weaver]

Supply and Demand

There are alternatives to the hatchet foot, but presently they are just as expensive mainly becasuse the dollar is weak against the Euro. I am suprised that an enterprising US manufacturer has not come up with a more affordable alternative.

I agree that the Mod category would benefit from opening things up. This will lead to innovation, which is what APBA members in the unrestricted categories are very adept at doing. I know cost is a real concern, but lack of parts (OEM) will strangle the Mod category faster than the SO category, because of the additional RPMs and torque.

I would love to see the modified category set-up based solely on displacement of an engine made specifically for pleasure or racing (i.e. a legitimate production engine). Inspection would be simple, bore and stroke. Weight also, if that is used I guess. Otherwise, do what you please to make the engine run on gasoline.

But, I would also love to see one modifed class that is open with regards to fuel!!!!! Gasoline or methanol.

DW

[Cameraboy]

that speaks to my point earlier. Why should we address it? What happens if other parts are no longer available? I suggest we do nothing. Let nature take its course. Attrition is the best argument for change. The class has had its day. I'm not saying kill it, just let it go. When it reaches the point of invalidation, it becomes probationary. At that point we decide what we will do to replace it or scrub it. Look what we have done to the 25SSR class. In order to not "potentially" lose a very small group of drivers, we artificially resusitated a dying class. The result is not more participation from actual 25'S but C2 Runabout. So C Runabout guys get to run twice(I know I'm simplifying). Why don't we scrap the very weak classes and run the stronger classes twice per day? The result would be better racing and more bang for your buck. John2-Z

Actually, what we saw in Region 10 this year was a drop in CSR that appeared to be because guys wanted to run 25ssr instead,m though that probably wasn't the whole reason. I think JMK was the only one who ran both regularly. Only one Merc in the mix, but I hear we might get a second Merc next year. It seems to be a lighter boats + lighter drivers thing looking for a home.

[mercguy]

Daren a lot of these restraints are done to help you and all the rest of the racers. We need to keep cost down where possible so we can all aford to race and be able to win. The very thing you mentioned was brought up for a vote to the Mod commisioners last year at the Nat. meeting. Any gear foot on any motor. The problem is we know the $1200? hatchet foot is a mile or two faster than the Yamato foot, so if the winning CM rig has the hatchet foot on it then you and I have to go out and buy one to be competitive. I have kind of over simplified it but I hope you get the idea. If you have a better idea write down and send it to your commisioner or John Read. I for one sure don't want to have to spend that kind of money to keep up so some of the rules may there to help us in areas we don't always think about.

while I can understand the money trying to be saved, that was what the "Stock" category was supposed to be for, an "entry level" place to start. I never considered "mod" to be a money savings class, but a "tinkerers" home. As to the $1200 Hatchet foot, well, through that $$$$ out the door as reasoning, as a NEW OMC foot costs $900+ and still needs a little work done, so you will have well over $1000 into a STOCK foot. Let face the facts, EVERYTHING costs more nowadays and a gearcase is going to cost you $1000 plus, except for a stock Yamato 302 unit. If the subject comes back into question, I WILL vote for ANY gearcase in MOD!~

[mercguy]

There are alternatives to the hatchet foot, but presently they are just as expensive mainly becasuse the dollar is weak against the Euro. I am suprised that an enterprising US manufacturer has not come up with a more affordable alternative.

I agree that the Mod category would benefit from opening things up. This will lead to innovation, which is what APBA members in the unrestricted categories are very adept at doing. I know cost is a real concern, but lack of parts (OEM) will strangle the Mod category faster than the SO category, because of the additional RPMs and torque.

I would love to see the modified category set-up based solely on displacement of an engine made specifically for pleasure or racing (i.e. a legitimate production engine). Inspection would be simple, bore and stroke. Weight also, if that is used I guess. Otherwise, do what you please to make the engine run on gasoline.

But, I would also love to see one modifed class that is open with regards to fuel!!!!! Gasoline or methanol.

DW

"I would love to see the modified category set-up based solely on displacement of an engine made specifically for pleasure or racing (i.e. a legitimate production engine). Inspection would be simple, bore and stroke. Weight also, if that is used I guess. Otherwise, do what you please to make the engine run on gasoline."

David, that is why the Pro category exists......

[mercguy]

Daren a lot of these restraints are done to help you and all the rest of the racers. We need to keep cost down where possible so we can all aford to race and be able to win. The very thing you mentioned was brought up for a vote to the Mod commisioners last year at the Nat. meeting. Any gear foot on any motor. The problem is we know the $1200? hatchet foot is a mile or two faster than the Yamato foot, so if the winning CM rig has the hatchet foot on it then you and I have to go out and buy one to be competitive. I have kind of over simplified it but I hope you get the idea. If you have a better idea write down and send it to your commisioner or John Read. I for one sure don't want to have to spend that kind of money to keep up so some of the rules may there to help us in areas we don't always think about.

also, if $$$$$ savings was the big issue, then why is the Yamato 80 unit not allowed under the C Yamato and ANY gearcase allowed under the C Merc. I know why ANY gearcase is allowed under the Merc.......to allow the "Mercguys" to try and make their motors competitive with the Yamatos, NOT to save them $$$ spent on building the motor, which, by the way, costs ALOT more to build than a Yamato, but that is our choice. So as not to sidetrack Dana's VERY IMPORTANT thread here, I will start a new one regarding other issues......sorry Dana!!!

[David Weaver]

Modified and PRO

I see these as different, but certainly with a number of commonalities. MOD engines are almost all pulled from production sources with the exception that a Yamato or a hot rod were never intended to do anything but race. Derivations of Mercury, Johnson and Evinrude engines can typically be found on pleasure boats. The vast majority of contemporary PRO engines have no cousins on the water for any other purpose than to turn-up RPM's until something breaks .

Certainly for MOD there needs to be something "stock" that you start from and can still identify at the end of the day, but for most the part, why couldn't it work that yuu must use the stock block as a base and then go crazy from there? Again, the spirit is waging war on the water in competition not waging a war of words on the internet or in a rules manual.

Just a thought, at the end of the day I prefer not to tear my engine apart or to have to carry lead in an otherwise balanced boat. I wonly wonder if a simpler tech. book for modified's would make the racing better and draw in more participants.

[AJennings]

A Lot Of Boats In One Class

if You Combined 20ssh, Bsh, And 25xs You Would Have 170 Or So Boats. In One Class.....as Of What It Says On Apba High Point

7o----------or So In Asr
27----------or So In Bsr
Huge-------csr
Huge-------25ssr
16----------in Dsr
98----------or So In Ash
31----------or So In Bsh
Huge-------csh
42----------or So In Dsh
35----------or So In 25ssh
Huge--------20ssh

[ryan_4z]

I see these as different, but certainly with a number of commonalities. MOD engines are almost all pulled from production sources with the exception that a Yamato or a hot rod were never intended to do anything but race. Derivations of Mercury, Johnson and Evinrude engines can typically be found on pleasure boats. The vast majority of contemporary PRO engines have no cousins on the water for any other purpose than to turn-up RPM's until something breaks .

Certainly for MOD there needs to be something "stock" that you start from and can still identify at the end of the day, but for most the part, why couldn't it work that yuu must use the stock block as a base and then go crazy from there? Again, the spirit is waging war on the water in competition not waging a war of words on the internet or in a rules manual.

Just a thought, at the end of the day I prefer not to tear my engine apart or to have to carry lead in an otherwise balanced boat. I wonly wonder if a simpler tech. book for modified's would make the racing better and draw in more participants.

There are small, but integral, differences between the three kneeldown categories. Like Daren said, that is why we have Stock, Mod, and Pro. There are some who would say that they should all be combined into one "Kneeldown Outboard" category. But, while they all may be similar, it is the basic idea of each category that keeps them so importantly separate. Stock is the "cheaper to get into", "everyone is equal" category. Mod is for the tinkerers. Pro is the no-holds-barred, just bore and stroke deal. They all serve their purpose. We don't need an "unlimited" Mod class, because that is what Pro is for. Just like us stockers(for the most part I believe), like to compete with box stock motors(at least motors that are all basically the same), and single engine classes. Because that is the basics of what Stock Outboard is. That is why CSH is not only the biggest class in APBA, but the most competitive class in all of watersports. Even though there are two legal motors in C stock, they are really no more than different year models of the same basic, made for racing, engine. And the competitivness of CSH is really proof that we need to focus on a more basic class structure, and, I believe, get back to single engine classes.

[dholt]

Good response

Back after the weekend...and glad to see so many responses to this thread.

Little surprised at some names who didn't chime in...but so be it.

The idea I proposed was just that...one person's idea. Certainly there are flaws to it...as with any plan.

One point brought up by D.Allen was quite valid. BSR (15ci Hot Rod) is very healthy in Region 7. So if the 15ci was scrapped and replaced with the 20ci Hot Rod, what would happen to those who couldn't/didn't want to convert? Perhaps the BSH and BSR are kept as "regional" classes. Still can run them, but not recognized nationally for points, HOC or Nationals.

I don't agree with that, because that's just spreading limited pool of drivers out over four Hot Rod classes instead of funneling everyone into the same classes.

AJ mentioned why mess with the successful 25ssR. Is 25SSR really a success story? Of the 67 boats that raced in 2005, how many were Mercs? About 10-15% at best. So all 25ssR is now is really C2R. We could start a class tomorrow called "20ssH restricted" and it would probably have 70-80 boats nationally the first year. Now, is that truly a successful new class? NO.

Someone else weighed in with the speed ranges we desire. And that's the heart of the issue. Why continue what we currently have?

ASH 57-58MPH (95 boats in '05)
BSH 63-64 MPH (31 boats in '05)
20SSH 64-66 MPH (123 boats in '05)
CSH 66-68 MPH (140 boats in '05)
25SSH 70-72 MPH (36 boats in '05)

We can clearly see where the weaknesses are. And these weaknesses have existed for the past 10-15 years.

Seems like common sense to get rid of the redundancy.

In 5 years we could have:

ASH 57-58 mph
BSH (Yamato 80 and restricted 102/302) 64-66
CSH 66-68
25ssH- (20ci Hot Rod and Merc 25xs til they die) 69-71
DSH- 80

ASR- 53-55 mph (light driver)
BSR (Hot Rod 20 and Merc 25xs) 63-64 (medium size driver)
CSR 64-65 (large driver)
DSR - whatever they run...upper 70's. (largest driver)

No reason that when you outgrow ASH/ASR you can't jump into the BSH/BSR

John Runne....I salute your input and enthusiasm. You mentioned that a plan such as the one I proposed exists. To my knowledge, I have never heard any grand plan for the past 5 years or more. It just looks like currently we're having engines built, restricting engines, and unrestricting engines with no organized goal.

Anyway...a flawed plan should be better than no plan at all.

D.

[14-H]

***We should not modify any parts of the Yamato 80 to keep them on the water. We have been running this class for a long time, we all got a great return over the years of our investment. ***. John 2-Z

In the last few years, the SORC has approved the manufacture and use of aftermarket pipes and pistons for this class.

[14-H]

A Plan

Any plan should look at mod and stock together. This is especially true since, historically, when an engine or class has been eliminated in stock, the most immediate reaction is to cause those drivers to race in mod. More importantly, however, there are many classes that cut across category for which there are really minor differences. Stock and Mod should be analyzed together. We could learn something from our AOF and NBRA bretheren as this is the way they have analyzed their class structures.

[race4kaos]

Dana...

Thanks for getting this back on track (I fell asleep reading about Mod gearboxes).

Regarding:
ASH 57-58MPH (95 boats in '05)
BSH 63-64 MPH (31 boats in '05)
20SSH 64-66 MPH (123 boats in '05)
CSH 66-68 MPH (140 boats in '05)
25SSH 70-72 MPH (36 boats in '05)

Because it scares me that I agree with what you are saying, I'd like to find something to rip on.
1- You guys should be winning the ASH nationals more. I only thought France saw those number. I've won some big races at a lot slower speeds.
2- I don't think BSH's run that anymore with 13 cc's. My good B and 20 use to both post 64 out front (but the 20 ET'd slightly faster). But B's are down slightly now...
3- 20SSH... 66 ? No wonder you've won so many Nationals recently...
4- CSH... 68 ? Maybe the 53-M should 'add more weight' to this rig too (to make the rest 'more competitive').
5- 25SSH - whatever, I'm tired of talking about this class

Will the new beefed up, detuned, 20ci HR really go 72 mph? Faster than a C... I think Dean has only seen 68 ish...

None of which detracts from your plan however...

KLadd-

[ryan_4z]

Any plan should look at mod and stock together. This is especially true since, historically, when an engine or class has been eliminated in stock, the most immediate reaction is to cause those drivers to race in mod. More importantly, however, there are many classes that cut across category for which there are really minor differences. Stock and Mod should be analyzed together. We could learn something from our AOF and NBRA bretheren as this is the way they have analyzed their class structures.

I think this would be a big mistake. Just because the categories use the same motors, doesn't mean we have to co-ordinate our plan for the future together. The two categories are philosophically different, and these differenced must be respected. Therefore the categories must be run separately. We race together, yes, but we govern separately. There is a line between stock and mod that must not be crossed.

[Bob Dunlap]

Why not combine the 25ssh class with CSH, lower their prop height to 1 3/8.
We never see any 25s run till we go to the Nationals. We usually have one 25 show up at the races in in the southeast regions and they can't run. If we combine them with CSH it would make the class even bigger and better.

[DougMc]

Could do the same with combining CSR and 25SSR too. That would cut out one class.