20SSH Sidewinder Removal Proposal: Vote NO

[reed28n]

Rules

As we all debate about motor preference and try to criticize people's motives we have lost sight of the bigger issue.

APBA By-Laws were circumvented, ignored and broken. The petition itself is not within our rules, it is not legal. APBA leadership has decided on its own to allow this petition and ignore the rules of the category. The leadership picks and choses what they will stand for.

If we do not intend to follow the rules of our category then I would make a motion that all rules within our organization, trumped up every year by members excited to got to the national meeting, be removed from the rule book.

We have made our rules and by laws simply a list. A list of ways to go after somebody when it is convenient, we do not follow them consistently and makes them suspect.

Follow the rules we have, if you don't like the rules lobby to get them changed, if we do not intended to or can't enforce them eliminate them.

[Charlie Pater]

I am curious, where in the rules/by-laws does it indicate the petition and voting on the issue is not legal or where and how the By-Laws were circumvented?

Charlie

[pav225]

After seeing people get all stressed in Reno, and some even having to go to the hospital, I have no desire or intention to have another 50K view p*ssing contest.

I do, however, feel the need to clarify a fact. The petition was 100% legal, so let's stop with the false accusations. If it was not legal, it would not have been allowed by APBA.

Mike

[Tim Weber]

I've read most of this thread and the previous 20,000 plus viewed thread. It makes for great comedy.

In reading all this, there is one nagging question I have.
It's been pretty well documented that the SW isn't competitive. The lap times form Whitney Point show this.

What's wrong with letting guys like Kyle Bahl and John Runne beat their heads against the wall and get their butts kicked if they choose to?

Tim

[Matt Dagostino]

Big Picture

I've read most of this thread and the previous 20,000 plus viewed thread. It makes for great comedy.

In reading all this, there is one nagging question I have.
It's been pretty well documented that the SW isn't competitive. The lap times form Whitney Point show this.

What's wrong with letting guys like Kyle Bahl and John Runne beat their heads against the wall and get their butts kicked if they choose to?

Tim

Tim.........you may be missing the big picture. Having 2 new available motors in one class is counterproductive and is problematic.

As you know the SORC in Reno took the bold and pro-active step of renaming the ole Parity Committees to Competition Committees and will name a MOTOR OF CHOICE in each class. So tell me Tim, which motor get's left out in the cold if you have 2 new available engines in a class????

To me, that is the big picture.

Matt

[sponsonhead]

Tim.........you may be missing the big picture. Having 2 new available motors in one class is counterproductive and is problematic.

And which motor is currently available?

I guess some of us are looking at a broader big picture.


R-19

[daveracerdsh]

200ssh

Remember, the Yamato 302 motor was NOT intended to be the motor of choice in 20 Hydro. It was a stopgap measure to keep the class alive until another motor became available. That motor (Sidewinder 20) should now be the "motor of choice" in the class. Dave

[daveracerdsh]

Sidewinder

Don, Mike, Matt, Ed et all. Maybe we should be looking at this thing from another angle. Right now, stock outboarding is dead. We are loosing somewhere around 30 members a year, we are doing NOTHING as a group to bring new members in, and yet you guys are bound and determined to make sure to put another nail in the coffin of the sport. Good going guys. Instead of putting the time in to increase membership, bring new people in, your narrow minded views are going to drive the last nail in the coffin. How much time have you guys spent on this crap. Instead of looking at ways of bringing new racers in, you are looking at ways of excluding people. Great. Keep it up. Ya...let's piss off Sidewinder...let's make sure they want to keep making motors for us. last time I looked, there will be no 302 motors available till may. fantastic. you know what? To people that are not involved in the sport, we all look like clowns. 300 people race stock outboards? And you guys want to EXCLUDE a new motor? have you all lost your minds? Honestly..come on. I just came from the Oroville kilos, and I had a hard time keeping a straight face telling people about the sport and how fun and fair it is. Dave

[reed28n]

The SORC

I am curious, where in the rules/by-laws does it indicate the petition and voting on the issue is not legal or where and how the By-Laws were circumvented?

Charlie

2. Stock Outboard:
A. Racing for the Stock Outboard classes shall be conducted under the supervision of a Stock Outboard Racing Commission (SORC). The decisions of the SORC shall be final in all matters pertaining to the administration and interpretation of the rules for these classes. This Commission shall serve as an appeal board for owners, drivers, Referees, Inspectors and Race Committee. The SORC shall consist of at least one member from each Region of APBA with at least 30 Stock Outboard members. One of the SORC’s duties shall be the enhancement of membership and the promotion of the growth of Stock Outboard racing. The SORC shall have the power to determine that specific motors may be eliminated or approved for use in other classes with restrictions. Any action under this paragraph shall be made at the Association’s annual meeting. Any rule in conflict with this paragraph shall be automatically repealed.

This is from our rule book. If we choose not to follow our own rules than take them out of the rule book. This entire process was reviewed by an independent attorney, APBA and the petition is out of order. If you dont wan the rule take it out. Dont leave it in as part of the way we manage our sport and ignore it.

Its not about the Sidewinder, its not about 20SSH. It is about APBA leadership chosing the rules they want to follow. This rule had to be approved by the BOD when it was printed, so they endorsed the category commission to be the steward of the class structure of Stock Outboard. Then decided to revoke that ability.

[kev29p]

"To people that are not involved in the sport, we all look like clowns. 300 people race stock outboards? And you guys want to EXCLUDE a new motor? have you all lost your minds? Honestly..come on....I had a hard time keeping a straight face telling people about the sport and how fun and fair it is. Dave"

EXACTLY! And, NOT INVOLVED is right where the people calling you clowns will remain!

[csh2z]

Both sides of this discussion have very valid points. Personal attacks and name calling is childish and not beneficial to any argument. Nobody is protecting their trailer box. As a strong proponent of one motor per class I fully understand the purpose of the petition.
At Reno, we evolved from "Parity" committees to "Competition" committees. In all classes with the exception of 20SSH (due to the outcome of the ballot proposal for 20SSH), the competition committee declared a "Motor of choice". The primary function of the committee is to monitor each class to insure that the Motor of choice maintains their slight performance edge.
The Sidewinder 20S is the motor of choice in the "B" classes and "25SSH" and also legal in 20SSH.
Let me propose a scenario. If the competition committee declared the motor of choice in 20SSH be the restricted 302 Yamato. That is what the petitioners want. To be able to direct people interested in racing that class to a definitive motor to pursue.
At the same time, the Sidewinder owners have a National level class, that runs at all races nationwide every weekend without having to be concerned about their class being on the schedule or not having enough boats in their class to race. That is what they want. The Sidewinder does not have to be the motor of choice in 20SSH, just don't take away the only nationally run class they have.
It's going to take time to grow 25SSH and the B classes to national popularity. 20SSH is their only exposure in many regions in the country.
Taking the Sidewinder out of 20 will cause Racing Outboards to struggle to survive. If they don't sell enough motors to justify staying in business, and we have a problem getting 302's in the future we'd be screwed.
This compromise scenario may just solve that potential problem.
If you haven't voted yet, vote no. Together, we can make this work.

[ryan_4z]

I'm curious, why the assumption that all our potential new racers are broke? For many people, five thousand dollars isn't that much money. Especially considering it isn't really the 4900 cost of the motor that is the issue, but the difference of the cost in the motors-which is probably more like $1200 after making the motor competitive through modification. Now, should new racers have the option to spend another $1200 if they choose? Remember, this is your hypothetical new racer who buys all new equipment and expects to be able to win the nationals in his first year. Should we limit his options?

As a side note: Last year 20ssH was the largest class in APBA! Would it have been without the sidewinder?

[Sonny]

Uuuhhh!!

Oh my goodness, I cannot believe we are going around and around about the Sidewinder thing again...If you want one buy one if you don't want one don't buy one besides from that shut up! This **** is getting old. If you put half the effort into new race sites and starting new racers as you put into telling members what to do and whining about who has what you would have a thriving sport.

[blueskyracer]

Oh my goodness, I cannot believe we are going around and around about the Sidewinder thing again...If you want one buy one if you don't want one don't buy one besides from that shut up! This **** is getting old. If you put half the effort into new race sites and starting new racers as you put into telling members what to do and whining about who has what you would have a thriving sport.

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

[Matt Dagostino]

Multi motor classes.......

Both sides of this discussion have very valid points. Personal attacks and name calling is childish and not beneficial to any argument. Nobody is protecting their trailer box. As a strong proponent of one motor per class I fully understand the purpose of the petition.
At Reno, we evolved from "Parity" committees to "Competition" committees. In all classes with the exception of 20SSH (due to the outcome of the ballot proposal for 20SSH), the competition committee declared a "Motor of choice". The primary function of the committee is to monitor each class to insure that the Motor of choice maintains their slight performance edge.
The Sidewinder 20S is the motor of choice in the "B" classes and "25SSH" and also legal in 20SSH.
Let me propose a scenario. If the competition committee declared the motor of choice in 20SSH be the restricted 302 Yamato. That is what the petitioners want. To be able to direct people interested in racing that class to a definitive motor to pursue.
At the same time, the Sidewinder owners have a National level class, that runs at all races nationwide every weekend without having to be concerned about their class being on the schedule or not having enough boats in their class to race. That is what they want. The Sidewinder does not have to be the motor of choice in 20SSH, just don't take away the only nationally run class they have.

You and i both agree as Stock Outboard 'purists' that one motor for each class is the perfect situation. However in the world we live today that just is not possible and hence we need the 'older' obsolete engines to remain in our classes for boat count at the club level. Hence the need for a Motor of Choice in the multi engine classes to help provide direction and class stability.

Again, it makes no sense to have 2 new and available engines in one class. Your statement about making the 20ci Sidewinder in 20ssh run handicapped to clearly allow the Yamato 302 to be the dominant motor (Motor Of Choice) is interesting but i wonder how the owners of a new $5000 20ci Sidewinder wanting to compete in 20ssh would feel about that???

As far as a National Stage for Sidewinder to showcase it's products and have a class to run nationwide, i believe the Sidewinder 15ci in ASH/ASR is run Nationwide and i believe even won a National Championship in 2012.

Perhaps Sidewinder LLC should spend some time behind the scene with the leaders of the APBA/ Stock Outboard community formulating logical strategy before just jumping into every class in the cataglory. Not all our classes need a Sidewinder. CSH/20ssh/DSH are just fine without them. As much as we all like the folks involved with the Sidewinder we need to make decisions that are best for Stock Outboarding first. The relationship needs to be a win win for all parties but what is best for our cataglory has to come first. Just my opinion.

ASH/BSH/25ssh/ASR/BSR/25ssr seems to be plenty of classes for Sidewinder for now. However if Yamato does fall off the radar as Pat seems to be inferring then it would be time to explore the Sidewinder as an option for both CSH and 20ssh.

Dave A., you seem to think we are wasting time on this issue. I could not disagree more. Every issue is important but some tend to get peoples blood pressure up more than others. And FYI region 4 put several new drivers on the water last year trying to promote our sport and most of them gravitated to the 20ssh class and the good ole Yamato 80 engine!! Go figure.

Ok......time to get ready for another 6 inches of snow here in DC tomorrow. Nice.