20SSH Sidewinder Removal Proposal: Vote NO

[squirrelboydeluxe]

So sorry to read this.
2014 was/is to be my first year boat racing. Just about the time I'm ready to really get interested in something, it falls apart. My usual luck.

I am ready to pony up the 5K or so to get started- I hope and pray I'm not too late. Whoever said 5k is not a lot of money was right about that. If you want something bad enough, you will find/appropriate/begborrowsteal the money.

I just hate to think that I will be the only one smiling at the races.

Honestly, I have no business sticking my nose in here but from a newcomer perspective I can't see the benefit of eliminating ANY motor that is #1 built here in the US; #2 is readily available, and #3 is at the center on the largest/most popular class. I guess I have a lot to learn besides the 10,000 different motor classes that already exist.

Again, as a total newcomer, you guys do not look like clowns as someone on here said. But if this is no longer fun then maybe it's time to look around for something that is. The video on here about "this is what stock outboard racing should be like"; most likely Australia/New Zealand- seems about as much fun as you could possibly have in a boat. They probably wear condoms in addition to helmets & life jackets. I wonder if they make them run the stock prop. They probably do.


Here in Harrisburg, PA they used to run a Jon boat class that was strictly for the rednecks/beer drinkers/hell raisers. No rules, no classes, no helmets. Believe it or not they actually did make them wear life vests. They lined 'em up, dead engine start, three laps, first one back won. I fing loved it.

George Bressler

[Apachemax]

Not the only one smiling.

So sorry to read this.
2014 was/is to be my first year boat racing. Just about the time I'm ready to really get interested in something, it falls apart. My usual luck.

I am ready to pony up the 5K or so to get started- I hope and pray I'm not too late. Whoever said 5k is not a lot of money was right about that. If you want something bad enough, you will find/appropriate/begborrowsteal the money.

I just hate to think that I will be the only one smiling at the races.

Honestly, I have no business sticking my nose in here but from a newcomer perspective I can't see the benefit of eliminating ANY motor that is #1 built here in the US; #2 is readily available, and #3 is at the center on the largest/most popular class. I guess I have a lot to learn besides the 10,000 different motor classes that already exist.

Again, as a total newcomer, you guys do not look like clowns as someone on here said. But if this is no longer fun then maybe it's time to look around for something that is. The video on here about "this is what stock outboard racing should be like"; most likely Australia/New Zealand- seems about as much fun as you could possibly have in a boat. They probably wear condoms in addition to helmets & life jackets. I wonder if they make them run the stock prop. They probably do.


Here in Harrisburg, PA they used to run a Jon boat class that was strictly for the rednecks/beer drinkers/hell raisers. No rules, no classes, no helmets. Believe it or not they actually did make them wear life vests. They lined 'em up, dead engine start, three laps, first one back won. I fing loved it.

George Bressler

George,
Believe it or not, everyone seems to get along/have a good time at races. Its when were all dried off and attempting to debate something that produces the conception that the sport is doomed.

[seanp3]

What Apachemax said

George, if I could make a suggestion which is to ignore most of the politics that goes on here on Hydroracer. I think once the season starts and you will go out to the races and it will be fun as usual. There a lot of new friends to be made, folks to get to know and some become lifelong friends. Keep your chin up – its not really as bad as it sounds here.

[blueskyracer]

during the off season folks get bored.. This year has been bad for folks getting snow bound.. Also they become brave when they have a key board and don't have to come face to face with individuals..

As for what engine to get well until things settle down I hate to say it but I would go with the Yamato for more bang for the buck.. But that also depends on where you live.. Find out from local clubs what are the popular classes and base your purchase on what you would be able to run..

[Robert M Keogler]

Contact Info

George,
The members at DVORA are in your area and would be very helpful in helping you make the right decisions for racing in your area.
You are in one of the best areas in the country for Stock Outboard Racing.

Contact info : www.dvoraracing.com

[pav225]

Norm,
Thanks for getting us back on track. Hope to see you again this summer!

I am hoping this will be my last post on this thread. Based on some good input from David Hale, Norm Schaub, and a host of others, I’d like to focus more posts on growing the sport instead of defending the Petition.

Thoughts behind keeping 20ssH a Yamato only class:

1) 20ssH has been one of the largest classes in Stock. It has been built on the foundation of the Y80 and more recently the Y302. While the Y302 is gaining in popularity, the motors are still fairly evenly matched on courses throughout the USA. As evidence, the Nationals at Whitney Point would have had a combination of Y80s and Y302s in the Finals. The Y80 + Y302 formula works very well. Why would we want to mess with it?

2) Yamato engines are extremely reliable and economical. All parts are available for rebuild of both motors. While some may think the age of the Y80 is a concern, they have demonstrated the ability to run for years with no issues of wear out. Regardless of age, they continue to provide an exceptional value to the racer.

3) Yamato engines require minimal tuning and run consistently for a long time and in all weather. This is a huge factor for getting new folks involved in racing and getting them to stay with it. Having a motor that they can put on the transom and race consistently is very important to folks who don’t want to tune, or do not have the required skills to tune, a motor at every race.

4) A new racer can buy a Y80 for $1200 and be competitive. If they chose to go with a Y302, they can get one for $2500 and many used ones are for sale for $2,000 or less. The same boat and props can be used with the Y80 and Y302. It is a economical platform to get someone into racing and also have the opportunity to race multiple classes.

5) The 302ssH class, coupled with Driving Schools, is a huge bright spot in APBA/Stock racing. While the class is great on its own merits, it provides a nice transition into other classes (20ssH and CSH) with the same motor and boat. This provides a lot of value for the investment. Having 20ssH and CSH as Yamato classes gives a potential new driver the confidence that the investment they make today on 302ssH can be competitive in 20ssH and CSH in the future.

6) 20ssH has been one of the largest classes in Stock for many years. One of the basic “Marketing 101” strategies when trying to grow is “protect the core, while pursuing growth” (feel free to read Phillip Kotler on this topic…he’s one of the grandfathers of modern marketing theories, and a pretty interesting guy). In this case, “the core” could be considered one of our largest classes; 20ssH. We should be careful to protect the largest class while continuing to pursue growth in Stock. New motors have been available in essentially all classes, so we should have some data to support/dispel the notion that new motors will drive growth. Unfortunately, if viewed objectively, this may have not been the case.

7) We have seen many folks get frustrated by the poor implementation of new motors in the A class. So much so that we have seen many folks switch to racing Formula A or quit racing altogether. We need to be more careful when introducing motors in one of our largest classes to avoid driving people away. We also need to honestly assess how many new drivers have started over the last five years as a result of new motors.

8) Concern over the lack of consistency, and minimal use of data, when trying to achieve parity in a class. Case in point, the arbitrary raising of the 20S height from 1 3/8” to 1” in 20ssH with zero test data. That has confirmed my lack of confidence that we can manage 3 motors in what has been successfully a 2 motor class.

I feel that in the end, it is a question of Risk vs Reward. If we screw this up, we Risk alienating 100+ drivers and having them leave the class or racing all together. The Reward is that we can get new racers into the sport by having a new motor. We have had new motors in the sport for many years and yet we are not seeing growth that is continuously promised. So we need to ask ourselves…What is the perceived benefit of having another motor in our largest class?? Can we manage “parity”?? And, Do we want to alienate the 100+ drivers for the promised growth opportunities that we haven’t seen come to fruition?? I firmly believe that the Risk greatly outweighs the Reward in 20ssH. That is why we chose to follow the APBA By-Laws and create the Petition. That is why we will continue to take jabs and insults from others who have different opinions.

We firmly believe it is the best way to move Stock forward.

[ryan_4z]

There has still been no good reason put forward for Yamato owners to feel threated by the presence of the SW in the 20 class. The citation of lap sheets from Whiney Point is weak evidence. Only the fastest entries from each class were compared. This data analysis excluded every other SW in the B class, and all the SW entries in the 20 class. It was a clearly biased analysis designed to mislead the class membership into a state of panic and fear, where they could be convinced to make a rash decision without considering the greater good.

I say to you 20ssH Yamato Drivers, have no fear. Your class is not in danger. It has taken many years for a SW to win one race in 20ssH. Maybe this year they'll win two. The point is, the Stock Outboard Category needs the 20ssH class as a launching point to grow the B and 25 classes. This doesn't have to pose a threat, it just means letting a few guys race with you until their class takes off. Consider this: If this petition passes, the B and 25 classes may never make a resurgence on the west coast. Don't these classes deserve a chance for national revival?

By subverting our elected representation, this petition subverts the greater good of the entire category. I know that the creators of this petition do not see it that way. They won't. But I ask you, the voting drivers, to see that there is more at stake here than just one class. This could be a pivotal moment in boat racing history. Don't let fear further divide an already splintered group. We must come together before we can grow.

[pav225]

Huh

Why wouldn't you use the B Class to grow the B Class???

[sponsonhead]

It's right there.

Why wouldn't you use the B Class to grow the B Class???

See paragraph #2 in Ryan's post above yours.

R-19

[Big Don]

Ryan like we have said before our letter may not have been written the best. Our example of the BSH times was simply to show that this is what is causing the current and prospective racers to question what they should do. People saw how fast he was, saw how slow others were, saw fast guys run last one heat and could not comprehend even more than they previously thought where we were heading. In our area we watch fast Sidewinders run out front by several MPH and the next heat run horrible. This has been going on for a few years and we have current drivers telling us they may leave the sport because they were afraid to buy a 80 or 302 to find out that the Sidewinder was the engine of choice for the future in the 20 class. These are our J, AX & A drivers. It would crush this entire category if we start losing our young drivers. How do I sell a new family looking to drop 10/15,000.00 what he should buy. We just couldn’t do it.

I wish I could have that letter back and word it differently but I was up against a time line and traveling and was doing it from a hotel room.

The point is, no one that I know of is afraid to get beat, it is the uncertainty that scares them.

The point is that there are too many current racers and new prospects that we could not honestly tell them where this class was heading. When asked the question of what should they buy, we could not tell them. You heard from people that in my opinion put on the best driving schools in this country (MHRA) say they were having the same issues selling the class. This is the only reason we did what we did, to stabilize the class.

Listen I swore I would not bash anyone so I’m sorry if this is taken wrong by anyone. But if Sidewinder did not want to take over the class where the he** have they been the last few years telling us that. Where was the SORC, making sure we knew the plan? Be pissed off at me and Mike all you guys want, but WE ALL did a horrible job with selling our sport to our current members so they could help set the future.

[65R]

See paragraph #2 in Ryan's post above yours.

R-19

[pav225]

See paragraph #2 in Ryan's post above yours.

R-19

I don't get your reply.

Mike

[pav225]

Mess with the largest class in an attempt to build up 2 classes that have been on life support for years? I thought the long term plan was to reduce the number of classes??

[sponsonhead]

I don't get your reply.

Mike

Ok, let me try again. To quote from Ryan:

"I say to you 20ssH Yamato Drivers, have no fear. Your class is not in danger. It has taken many years for a SW to win one race in 20ssH. Maybe this year they'll win two. The point is, the Stock Outboard Category needs the 20ssH class as a launching point to grow the B and 25 classes. This doesn't have to pose a threat, it just means letting a few guys race with you until their class takes off. Consider this: If this petition passes, the B and 25 classes may never make a resurgence on the west coast. Don't these classes deserve a chance for national revival?"

[Matt Dagostino]

Show me the money!!!!

The point is, the Stock Outboard Category needs the 20ssH class as a launching point to grow the B and 25 classes. This doesn't have to pose a threat, it just means letting a few guys race with you until their class takes off. Consider this: If this petition passes, the B and 25 classes may never make a resurgence on the west coast. Don't these classes deserve a chance for national revival?

Ryan...........as Pat Gleason pointed out there is no formal plan on the table to make the Sidewinder the Motor Of Choice in 25ss Hydro but rather it is just 'talk'.

I have also heard stories of the 20ci engine being put in 20ssh for a few years for R&D purposes till the engine gets the bugs worked out and has a chance to be showcased nationally in 20ssh and then be taken out and focused in the 25 Hydro class. Blah, blah blah.....I have also heard that Sidewinder wants to keep the 20ci motor in 20ssh and with the arbitrary rule recently passed to raise the engine height to one inch now position itself to win Nationally and sell motors!!!!

Without a firm direction from Sidewinder in conjunction with the SORC what is a average 'joe' to do??????

If the intent in 2010 was to use the 20ssh class as a temporary proving ground for the product why didn't the manufacturer and it's supporters on the SORC present the deal that way and maybe go with a 5 year plan maybe???

This is just another example of a 'blurred vision' with no real planning or exit strategy by the SORC..........of which i was a member of that year. Guilty as charged!!