Don't let Region 6 kill Sidewinder

[jimmy112j]

20ssh.

I did not get a petition, maybe it would be better to start a poll hear on hr. just an idea.

[ryan_4z]

25ssH sounds good to me!

Way to go guys, it sounds like ya'll solved this one. Now, the only question that remains: Are you ready to dance, Allen?

[Big Don]

I did not get a petition, maybe it would be better to start a poll hear on hr. just an idea.

Your SORC rep got a copy to assure everyone that wanted to see it got to.

I did my best finding everyone's address. I have the list at my office so I can't look now but if you want to private message me your address, I'll gladly send you one. Maybe you'll end up with several.

I sent 12 more out yesterday for people that I did not have addresses for or for people that have requested them that I didn't have.

I have also asked for a mailing list from APBA for all the 20ssH drivers, just don't know if they are going to send it to me.

[Matt Dagostino]

Politics

I have also asked for a mailing list from APBA for all the 20ssH drivers, just don't know if they are going to send it to me.

Big Don.........perhaps if one of your family members made the request to APBA you would have better results. After all, everybody DISLIKES you!!

[Big Don]

Matt, we thought about that. LOL

[guedo499]

For those that do not know an experimental crankcase was tested out at the nationals. someone built an front carb, crankcase for the side winder.
It picked up 2 MPH just by putting the carb where it belongs on the engine. The front carb case was not even 100% correct yet, as the crank was binding in the case in spots and running hot.
So don't be saying that the engine runs fine!! For what I have seen they extremely tempermental to air changes, rpm, air temp, ect.
.

Care to expand? Not the theory why, but more of the results. Has this person been in contact with Sidewinder/Ron?

I respect my peers that see an issue and find a solution.

I am VERY interested in the 25xs/BSH class; however, not when I saw the West's SW's struggle to even deep water start.

[bill boyes]

Don eta, Gee maybe the OMC owners want to do the same thing. Then what market will the SW have??
SORC members REALLY do not want a new motor(s)

[Big Don]

Bill, if I didn't want new engines, or engines from japan that have been run, I would have also tried to get the 302 taken out. Remember we still run 80's. That is what Donny won both his championships with in 20. We would have run one again this year. We are going to have to invest in newer engines anyways. We struggled with what direction to go for ourselves and we struggled with prospective racers that is why we are doings what we are. We are just trying to do what we feel is best for the class. Sorry you don't agree.

What the A drivers do is their business. Up until 2 years ago we still raced A. We knew that going forward all our classes were going to need newer engines and we knew we couldn't afford to do that in 3 classes so Donny & I decided to get out of A and only race 20 & C. Looking back and if I had a crystal ball and knew one of our other kids would want to start back up I may have kept the OMC stuff. Because now I have no clue what to put him in with our race budget. And I don't want both of them racing the same classes. I can tell you this, if we were racing A still I would support the Sidewinder. Even though 5 years ago I wouldn't have, we had the Mercury as a replacement for the OMC. The class went a different direction. I still feel we should give the mercury a little boast in the A class to help sell it as a additional class to race the engine with. It would let all those AX drivers step up and have another class and help fund our races which we all seem to be struggling to do.

[sponsonhead]

Starts

I am VERY interested in the 25xs/BSH class; however, not when I saw the West's SW's struggle to even deep water start.

FYI Guedo, once we updated to the new intake manifold, we rarely struggled to start. In fact, from Cullaby on, I think the only heat we failed to start on might have been one at Soap Lake when Kyle was short handed on pit crew. Our problems were admittedly mostly self-inflicted. Like any motor, once you have the routine figured out and get it down, problems are minimal.

R-19

[daveracerdsh]

Sidewinder

I watched Kyle and Pat's progress all year in regards to the Sidewinder 20....much closer then they realize....and was pretty impressed. I still think it will take a few years to prop it right and get it to be a front runner. Had a long chat with Ed Runne, He is pretty frustrated with this whole thing. I was somewhat suprised that he said Sidewinder would not pull up stakes if the Sidewinder 20 was kicked out of 20, but he did say that Sidewinder would not concentrate it's efforts on APBA anymore. Not a good thing at all. I sat at the Honolulu airport yesterday waiting for my flight and carefully read every single post on this subject at least twice. And yet, I still do not get what the huge issue is with this motor. There is NO WAY that a Sidewinder 20 is going to beat a restricted 302 in the forseable future. Unless of course there are gun jumpers. I have great respect for Don and Donnie and Mike, but this just makes the SORC look foolish. We make a wise (in my opinion) decision to support Sidewinder, who has invested god knows how much money into this thing, and 3 years later a few people decide to go the membership to get something changed they don't like? This is going to have far reaching consequences for the sport. I have been hearing that people see this stuff and don't want anything to do with stock now. Wonderfull. We have 300 members and we are gonna lose people over this, not gain them. And what about the possibility of future Sidewinder projects? Or other motors? Who on earth would want to get involved with us if this goes thru. Trust me, people outside the sport read this stuff or hear about it. Mike and Don, I honestly hope you guys have thought this thing thru.....I really do. Dave

[propfxrO84]

Dave, I don't always agree with you, but, I was bored and read this whole thread, I think you are for the greater good, and even though I haven't been involved in "stock" in a long time. I wouldn't even consider spending 6-7K on a front running rig (it really does cost that much for a guy who buys all new top shelf stuff) on a class that I might have my motor outlawed or handicapped in. Y'all should really get together and look at the video that Chip did (that has very little views) and "grow" instead of "divide" yourselves. I have no dog in the fight. Good luck, BT flame away

[pav225]

Dave,
I appreciate your thoughts.

Believe me, we thought it through from every angle. We knew that some folks would be pissed off and there would be plenty of negative comments. We also felt that we would be representing the large portion of 20ssH drivers and felt their voices needed to be heard via a vote. In the end, the petition only allows drivers the opportunity to vote, so the drivers will get more of a say in the direction of their class.

I do firmly believe that we are acting in the best interest of the class and Stock outboard. We may be accused of being protectionist or protecting our trailer box. Both are completely false. If the 20ssH class went SW only today, I'm pretty sure we would have new boats ready to test before the lakes were frozen. We also have access to good props and gas...so we could easily jump start our SW race program and be extremely competitive quickly. We also own Y80s and Y302s, so we aren't protecting one of those over the other.

So why can't we just go with the flow??

1) We already have 2 closely matched engines for the 20ssH. No one has ever been able to explain how a 3rd one will actually help the class. It's always arguments of protectionism or team driving or some other silly idea. I can't see how it helps the class, and no one has been able to articulate the benefit.

2) We will never achieve parity with such different motors.

3) There is absolutely no reason to have a 3rd motor in the class, for 2-3 times the price, when folks can't win with it. That is not a viable sales pitch for any potential new driver...or experienced driver. I'm not saying they are over priced. I am saying, it's not realistic to think folks will buy a more expensive motor and run in the back. So why have them in the class?

4) The 302ssH class (which many Regions are succesfully pushing) supports a great transition from a sealed 302ssH motor into 20ssH and/or CSH. Buy one motor to get started in racing and then have two great options to grow into.

5) The lack of testing/validation/parity in the A class has caused some Regions to drop A altogether ( yes, East coast is doing well) and has caused a huge rift between many racers as there are constant arguments about the different motors and performance.

6) 20ssH is essentially tied with CSH for the most number of drivers. Simple "Marketing 101" would tell you to preserve your current customer base before pursuing new customers. We simply can't afford to screw with the 100+ drivers in order to make a few happy.

7) We need to address the problem now while it is relatively small. The 20ci is a good motor and is a good choice for the B class. I also think Runne's idea to have it in 25 has a lot of merit. These options will probably help sell more motors (which I truly support) while also keeping the current 20ssH drivers happy.

Hope that helps answer some of the "why's".

Thanks for your comments,
Mike

[daveracerdsh]

20ssh

Mike. Of course I understand what you are saying.....I just do not agree with it. I do not run the class very often....when I do it is just to help friends out testing a new rig/props/hull etc etc etc. This just does not pass the smell test. So what that we have 2 new motors available for the class? Honestly....so what? If I was an impartial observer....which in all honesty I cant say I am...I would look at this proposal and say this is utter lunacy. We are telling Sidewinder, who right now is putting I would bet well over 500 k into a sport where there are less then 300 participants? Huh? are we out of out of our minds to tell them that we are going to boot them out of the biggest class in stock outboard over the possiblity in the future that one of their motors might win the class? When that motor has not even come close to that goal? Not even close? I mean.WTF....We can't look at things that way. We can't. Mike....we are at a crossroads with stock racing. If this goes thru, and I am betting it will....look for things to change, and not in a good way of this proposal happens. Dave[/LIST]

[pav225]

Dave,
Again, thanks for you comments.

I still haven't heard why its actually a good thing for the 20ssH drivers, good for the class, good for Stock, or even good for the motor manufacturer.

For it to be good for SW, it would need to be at least 2 mph than the fastest 302 in order for folks to really consider buying it at a higher cost. The argument that having it in 20ssH will save the class or the mfg, just doesn't add up.

The Yamato was always to be the motor of choice for 20ssH. Folks have options to buy a low cost Y80 for $1200 or a Y302 for ~$2,500. This is one of the few ways ways that we have seen folks get started in the past. Now, driving schools and the 302ssH program have really improved the ability to get more folks in boats and started in racing. With 2 good motor choices, and the argument that the more expensive motor will be slower, why would we muddy the waters and add confusion to any potential new folks with another option?

We have also seen the trend that we continue lose more members than the new ones we create. Based on discussions with many racers over the summer, I believe that if we screw up the 20 class, many drivers will be done, or move to Mod. We would like to keep that from happening.

No more posting for a while. Off to kids sports, and hopefully test this weekend.

Have a safe trip back,
Mike

[Big Don]

but he did say that Sidewinder would not concentrate it's efforts on APBA anymore. Not a good thing at all. Dave

Dave I am not nit picking your comment but what does that mean? I'm taking my ball and going to go play with other kids? Really? I would be real disappointed if he did say that. The 20S still has a home in the "B" classes and the 25 class. This could actually increase his sales. Heck maybe I'll buy one if we can bring back 25 and let Thomas race it in 2 classes.