Don't let Region 6 kill Sidewinder

[Racerkyle20]

We haven't heard much from the Merc drivers, I would think they would be on board. The options are few, with the amount of participation we've seen recently. I think I've only been able to run 25 3 or 4 times in the last two or so years due to lack of boats. I guess if they can't muster up four boats they just don't bother. If this were to work out, you might be able to get a couple to some races they normally wouldn't go to because they could be relatively sure there will be enough boats to get a ride and have some fun!
Pat, It's the means to an end.

What kind of speed can we get out of the 20ci SW to compete with any 25xs engines out there? Bare with me on this:

If a 25 hydro can go 75mph, let's say 70mph in competition and the sidewinder is doing 65mph (not that i've EVER seen, but for argument sake) how will we have the merc 25xs and 20ci SW co-exist? To me they're two totally different engines that could never be the same. And if the theory is to make the 20SW the dominate motor then in the end we just have a secondary 20ss class (meaning the 'new 25 hydro' class) that does the same speed. Seems redundant to me, especially if we have MULTIPLE other classes that go in the 60-70mph range. 25 hydro should be going faster than CSH. In this scenario I don't think a 20ci sw EVER can. Lets look at this:

Some APBA stock outboard based hydro classes and top speeds (or near top):
302ssH-60mph
BSH- 64mph, plus BSR
20ssh-65mph, plus 25ssr
CSH-68mph, plus CSR
25xs-70mph
OSY-70mph

And heck, 6 of those 9 we run with Yamato's. Why on earth do need to promote another 65mph outboard class in APBA (meaning a new SW based 25 hydro). If going back to the sutherland plan of 3 years ago, this is why Stock outboard is dying. We are spreading our resources out too thin. We not have enough drivers to promote 9 classes with the same speed at this time. 25 hydro should be done (4 drivers received points in 2013 nationally). We shouldn't be resurrecting that class, put it away and be done with it. That's why I like the theory of multiple motor manufacturers in the same class. It brings the pool of drivers together so we're not watching 10 classes with 4-5 drivers each racing every weekend (which is boring to a spectator).

If this vote to get rid of the 20SW goes through, we should not be promoting and trying to make parity in the 25 hydro class. Just leave it in the B class and let it be the motor of choice. It seems to work well in 25ssr too, so leave it there as well (I guess).

[Matt Dagostino]

Speeds

What kind of speed can we get out of the 20ci SW to compete with any 25xs engines out there? Bare with me on this:

If a 25 hydro can go 75mph, let's say 70mph in competition and the sidewinder is doing 65mph (not that i've EVER seen, but for argument sake) how will we have the merc 25xs and 20ci SW co-exist? To me they're two totally different engines that could never be the same. And if the theory is to make the 20SW the dominate motor then in the end we just have a secondary 20ss class (meaning the 'new 25 hydro' class) that does the same speed. Seems redundant to me, especially if we have MULTIPLE other classes that go in the 60-70mph range. 25 hydro should be going faster than CSH. In this scenario I don't think a 20ci sw EVER can. Lets look at this:

Some APBA stock outboard based hydro classes and top speeds (or near top):
302ssH-60mph
BSH- 64mph, plus BSR
20ssh-65mph, plus 25ssr
CSH-68mph, plus CSR
25xs-70mph
OSY-70mph

And heck, 6 of those 9 we run with Yamato's. Why on earth do need to promote another 65mph outboard class in APBA (meaning a new SW based 25 hydro). If going back to the sutherland plan of 3 years ago, this is why Stock outboard is dying. We are spreading our resources out too thin. We not have enough drivers to promote 9 classes with the same speed at this time. 25 hydro should be done (4 drivers received points in 2013 nationally). We shouldn't be resurrecting that class, put it away and be done with it. That's why I like the theory of multiple motor manufacturers in the same class. It brings the pool of drivers together so we're not watching 10 classes with 4-5 drivers each racing every weekend (which is boring to a spectator).

If this vote to get rid of the 20SW goes through, we should not be promoting and trying to make parity in the 25 hydro class. Just leave it in the B class and let it be the motor of choice. It seems to work well in 25ssr too, so leave it there as well (I guess).

Kyle
Good point on the speed issue. I was under the assumption from Sidewinder folks that the 20ci engine raised to 1/2" like the 25xs height will run in the 70mph range or better. If it does only run say 67-68mph then the question is does the 25xs class become expendable??

My personal opinion is keep the 25xs class with the Sidewinder 20ci and Yamato 80 added to the mix and slow down the Merc somehow. I am not hung up on most of our classes running in the 60-70mph range. That seems to be a comfortable speed for most of our drivers. After all, we are a hobbie sport and being able to run mulitiple classes with one motor is attractive from a 'value' standpoint, especially in the age 0f $4500-5000 dollar engines nowadays.

[csh12M]

I can see both sides.....

What kind of speed can we get out of the 20ci SW to compete with any 25xs engines out there? Bare with me on this:

If a 25 hydro can go 75mph, let's say 70mph in competition and the sidewinder is doing 65mph (not that i've EVER seen, but for argument sake) how will we have the merc 25xs and 20ci SW co-exist? To me they're two totally different engines that could never be the same. And if the theory is to make the 20SW the dominate motor then in the end we just have a secondary 20ss class (meaning the 'new 25 hydro' class) that does the same speed. Seems redundant to me, especially if we have MULTIPLE other classes that go in the 60-70mph range. 25 hydro should be going faster than CSH. In this scenario I don't think a 20ci sw EVER can. Lets look at this:

Some APBA stock outboard based hydro classes and top speeds (or near top):
302ssH-60mph
BSH- 64mph, plus BSR
20ssh-65mph, plus 25ssr
CSH-68mph, plus CSR
25xs-70mph
OSY-70mph

And heck, 6 of those 9 we run with Yamato's. Why on earth do need to promote another 65mph outboard class in APBA (meaning a new SW based 25 hydro). If going back to the sutherland plan of 3 years ago, this is why Stock outboard is dying. We are spreading our resources out too thin. We not have enough drivers to promote 9 classes with the same speed at this time. 25 hydro should be done (4 drivers received points in 2013 nationally). We shouldn't be resurrecting that class, put it away and be done with it. That's why I like the theory of multiple motor manufacturers in the same class. It brings the pool of drivers together so we're not watching 10 classes with 4-5 drivers each racing every weekend (which is boring to a spectator).

If this vote to get rid of the 20SW goes through, we should not be promoting and trying to make parity in the 25 hydro class. Just leave it in the B class and let it be the motor of choice. It seems to work well in 25ssr too, so leave it there as well (I guess).

Kyle, I agree with your post. I see both sides of this argument and realize the pros and cons of both, but... I will play devils advocate here.

I agree that less classes would of been the way to go, but I don't believe it is going to happen. So...if it is not going to happen anyway then...the next best thing for the sport and for Sidewinder would be to commit 25SSH Hydro to the Sidewinder. It makes the most common sense for all classes. I TOTALLY agree with what John Runne said earlier. Each class has to have a solid direction in order to grow and be advocated to new people. Additionally, from a Sidewinder perspective it has a 30% higher cost then a 302 (the motor it will be competing against in 20SSH) Therefore I would anticipate the 302 will outsell the Sidewinder in 20SSH, the 302 will always be in the majority. The majority of the class will want to "keep the Sidewinder in check" from a parity perspective. Thus, I can never advocate a Sidewinder to a "new name" racer in 20SSH. However, if it has the 25SSH class to itself, you have a great "value proposition" for a 20CI Sidewinder for a new guy. The structure would look like this:

ASH/ASR - Sidewinder A/OMC

BSH/BSR - Restricted 20CI Sidewinder/HotRod
25XS - 20CI Sidewinder only
25SSR - 20CI Sidewinder/25XS Merc./Yamato 302

20SSH - 302 Yamato/80 Yamato
CSH/CSR - 302 Yamato/102 Yamato

DSH/DSR - Tohotsau/Mercury 44XS

I listed the motor that should be "motor of choice" first for each class.

This structure is pretty solid from a "value proposition" perspective and a growth perspective. The only way to significantly make racing more affordable is to be able to put your equipment on the water in more than one class. A $5.00 restrictor plate doubles your water time while reducing equipment cost by 50%. It makes our kneel down racing a LOT more attractive and affordable. If the 20CI Sidewinder owned the 25SSH class, then I can see selling it to new people. For a $4,600 investment you can race 25SSH and BSH with a restrictor. The motor just got a LOT cheaper to "swallow". The same situation will exist in the runabout. This will grow Sidewinder sales faster. In the Hydro you can probably run 25SSH and BSH on the same boat. In 20SSH the 20CI still has to fight the Yamato rollers - thus needing a pretty good size boat. The 25SSH will grow if it is Sidewinder only because the BSH and BSR exist, so crossing over becomes pretty easy to do. At the Nationals you get full recognition. The 25SSH will become relevant again.

This structure would have the same value for a 302 in 20 and in C, for Hydro and 25 and CSR for runabout. The 25SSR will still be a weird "grab bag" of motors and rigs - but you cant solve every problem.

This structure has A LOT of merit, every class becomes SELLABLE with its own unique qualities. Small light American made two stroke, or heavy cheap indestructible Yamato. They key is both can race in two classes with the use of a restrictor. This structure "cleans up" a LOT of the indecision in motors within classes and hurts the least amount of people.

The keys to this working would be:

Remove the 20CI Sidewinder from 20SSH
Remove or crazy restrict the Mercury in 25SSH
Dissolve the idea of parity committees, except for 25SSR
Freeze all rules for 6 years

If we did this and committed to the structure for 6 years we will give the Yamatos and the Sidewinders a fair structure to sell their motors. It is relatively even "if you will" from a structure standpoint. The market will then determine what motor it prefers.

This structure really makes the most TOTAL SENSE for everyone, while hurting the least amount of people.

12M

[Matt Dagostino]

Racing Outboards LLC

Kyle, I agree with your post. I see both sides of this argument and realize the pros and cons of both, but... I will play devils advocate here.

I agree that less classes would of been the way to go, but I don't believe it is going to happen. So...if it is not going to happen anyway then...the next best thing for the sport and for Sidewinder would be to commit 25SSH Hydro to the Sidewinder. It makes the most common sense for all classes. I TOTALLY agree with what John Runne said earlier. Each class has to have a solid direction in order to grow and be advocated to new people. Additionally, from a Sidewinder perspective it has a 30% higher cost then a 302 (the motor it will be competing against in 20SSH) Therefore I would anticipate the 302 will outsell the Sidewinder in 20SSH, the 302 will always be in the majority. The majority of the class will want to "keep the Sidewinder in check" from a parity perspective. Thus, I can never advocate a Sidewinder to a "new name" racer in 20SSH. However, if it has the 25SSH class to itself, you have a great "value proposition" for a 20CI Sidewinder for a new guy. The structure would look like this:

ASH/ASR - Sidewinder A/OMC

BSH/BSR - Restricted 20CI Sidewinder/HotRod
25XS - 20CI Sidewinder only
25SSR - 20CI Sidewinder/25XS Merc./Yamato 302

20SSH - 302 Yamato/80 Yamato
CSH/CSR - 302 Yamato/102 Yamato

DSH/DSR - Tohotsau/Mercury 44XS

I listed the motor that should be "motor of choice" first for each class.

This structure is pretty solid from a "value proposition" perspective and a growth perspective. The only way to significantly make racing more affordable is to be able to put your equipment on the water in more than one class. A $5.00 restrictor plate doubles your water time while reducing equipment cost by 50%. It makes our kneel down racing a LOT more attractive and affordable. If the 20CI Sidewinder owned the 25SSH class, then I can see selling it to new people. For a $4,600 investment you can race 25SSH and BSH with a restrictor. The motor just got a LOT cheaper to "swallow". The same situation will exist in the runabout. This will grow Sidewinder sales faster. In the Hydro you can probably run 25SSH and BSH on the same boat. In 20SSH the 20CI still has to fight the Yamato rollers - thus needing a pretty good size boat. The 25SSH will grow if it is Sidewinder only because the BSH and BSR exist, so crossing over becomes pretty easy to do. At the Nationals you get full recognition. The 25SSH will become relevant again.

This structure would have the same value for a 302 in 20 and in C, for Hydro and 25 and CSR for runabout. The 25SSR will still be a weird "grab bag" of motors and rigs - but you cant solve every problem.

This structure has A LOT of merit, every class becomes SELLABLE with its own unique qualities. Small light American made two stroke, or heavy cheap indestructible Yamato. They key is both can race in two classes with the use of a restrictor. This structure "cleans up" a LOT of the indecision in motors within classes and hurts the least amount of people.

The keys to this working would be:

Remove the 20CI Sidewinder from 20SSH
Remove or crazy restrict the Mercury in 25SSH
Dissolve the idea of parity committees, except for 25SSR
Freeze all rules for 6 years

If we did this and committed to the structure for 6 years we will give the Yamatos and the Sidewinders a fair structure to sell their motors. It is relatively even "if you will" from a structure standpoint. The market will then determine what motor it prefers.

This structure really makes the most TOTAL SENSE for everyone, while hurting the least amount of people.

12M

Dean
All sounds good. The SORC at it's highest level should be working with Racing Outboards LLC to 'mold' the Sidewinder into Stock Outboarding with as few headaches as possible to both parties. The Sidewinder has been a 'work in progress' for several years now and looks be be gaining some traction.

Cooler heads need to prevail here and allow the 'process' to work itself out and place the Sidewinder products where it is a win-win for them and us!!

All this 'social networking' stuff is good banter but hopefully Racing Outboards LLC and the SORC are 'communicating'. Just sayin.

[daveracerdsh]

Sidewinder

While in Hawaii I had a very long and productive talk with Ed Runne. Anybody with issues over this should call him....Dave

[ricochet112]

While in Hawaii I had a very long and productive talk with Ed Runne. Anybody with issues over this should call him....Dave

Did those thugs get your jewelry and purse too?

[pav225]

Not Cool.

Lets get back to the topic at hand, where Don and I are self centered, entitled jerks who are ruining the sport of boat racing...

[25xs seeya!]

Not Cool.

Lets get back to the topic at hand, where Don and I are self centered, entitled jerks who are ruining the sport of boat racing...

Lol................

[daveracerdsh]

25xs

During the Merc Challenge days, along with D, I ran 25XS a few times. I have tested or raced everything from Jean Mackay's A stock to 5 Litre and super stock. 25XS hydro was the only boat I have been in that scared the holy crap out of me. I literaly peed my pants after running one of those things.

[Matt Dagostino]

Yep

During the Merc Challenge days, along with D, I ran 25XS a few times. I have tested or raced everything from Jean Mackay's A stock to 5 Litre and super stock. 25XS hydro was the only boat I have been in that scared the holy crap out of me. I literaly peed my pants after running one of those things.

I agree. The Merc 25xs ride is challenging in my opinion also. The 20ci Sidewinder ride is however smooth and comfortable. The 'racing' flywheel on the Sidewinder and racing lower unit lend itself to a fast and safe ride!!

[Matt Dagostino]

20ssh..........109 drivers!!

As of the most recent posting of High Points on the APBA website, 20SSH has now officially become the largest and most popular class in APBA with 109 different drivers hitting the water.

Perhaps the SORC should spend some time understanding why this spike in interest has occurred in 20ssh over the last five years and build off that model.

Food for thought.

The Captain

[BmJuby]

I agree. The Merc 25xs ride is challenging in my opinion also. The 20ci Sidewinder ride is however smooth and comfortable. The 'racing' flywheel on the Sidewinder and racing lower unit lend itself to a fast and safe ride!!

I enjoyed the ride myself. Though I agree about the non-racing flywheel. Come off the throttle and boy does it not want to wind down right away. Other than that a real thrill to drive, exactly the speed and adrenaline rush I have been looking for in a modern setup.

[propnuts]

As the guy with arguably the fastest 20 in region 10

I say leave the Sidewinder alone. I would have as much right to try to protect MY trailer box as anyone (no disrespect to Allen and Pavlick), and I doubt anyone would blame me much. But if it means me loosing some 20 races to get a new motor into the class I'm cool with that. If KB or anyone else willing to put in the time, money and effort into making this thing work wins they deserve to win that class, I don't believe I necessarily deserve to win with my restricted C stock motor. At that point I have to decide to buy one or not. I could see that as a possibility, I like the power to weight gain with the Sidewinder, and I have a fairly light driver. I don't really want to get too much deeper into the argument except to say that I have been a Sidewinder supporter all along and I'm sticking with it.

[userken]

If I was a newbee considering racing, I would never ever consider joining a class with more than one approved motor. Even in a one motor class, IMO you need a second motor to know if the first one is a worldbeater or a dud. So now I need to buy two 302's and two SW's? And probably two Y80's, because I'd guess the Y80 is faster on some courses and the 302 on others (?)
IMO a big part of racing is understanding where your program is lacking-boat, motor, propeller. Having more than one approved motor makes this very difficult and to me would keep me out of a class.
Cheers,
Ken F.

[D_Allen_III]

I say leave the Sidewinder alone. I would have as much right to try to protect MY trailer box as anyone (no disrespect to Allen and Pavlick), and I doubt anyone would blame me much.

Usually when you say "no disrespect" there is disrespect implied, which again, I believe you are doing so. Say what you want about us protecting OUR trailer boxes, I haven't raced a single 20SSH race with my 302 so I'm not protecting anything except trying to keep a class that I love, as one of the largest and most competitive in stock outboard. I think we are going to agree to disagree on the subject of multiple new engines in one class, but oh well I guess.