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SO Class Reduction Proposal

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  • Don,
    I agree, that is what concerned people. Unfortunately, the perception of the plan, in most peoples mind, became reality. As Brad stated, all of these proposals were no more than just that. The SORC(elected individuals) made all the decisions by vote, not the committee. We recommended a three year phase out of obselete motors to give people plenty of time to plan ahead, but the commission would decide when to begin implementation of that three year period.
    As an example look at 20ssh. We have a motor out of production since 1979 and a new motor designed specifically to run in that speed range. Currently 20ssh is a relatively popular class, although the participation had dropped over 20% in recent years(Remember this was 2007! BEFORE the recession). Rather than being reactive and do nothing as in the past, we had an opportunity to be proactive so that everybody would know what options were available in the future. We thought it necessary to to inform people BEFORE the numbers dropped to a point where the classes survival was in jeopardy. Example: How do you resurrect a class after most of the drivers quit(DSR). If we see a trend, we have to react to it before we lose too many drivers. Everybody would know that if they were interested in 20ssh that eventually the Yamato would be replaced with the Sidewinder and could therefore make an informed decision. Having a plan in place for each class promotes stability. The only question then is, "When will this happen"? The answer is 3 years after the SORC decides that the class is growing at an acceptable rate due to the influx of the Sidewinder and decline of the Yamato.
    How many years would it take before a commission would see the need to begin that phase out period? 2? 3? 5? I'd say closer to five than two. Especially with this current recession. If I'm right, you'll be able to run your Yamato until 2018! That is only one year short of the motor being out of production for 40 YEARS! If the plan is embraced and promoted rather than fought against we would feel way more confident in our future. Another thing to think about is sometimes plans do change but as long as the goal remains the same there still is stability.
    That leads to Darrens question of how long will a manufacturer be producing that model motor? As far as Yamato 302, Tohatsu and Mercury I'd imagine there will be enough parts available to sustain us for at least 20 years after production stops. Just like the last 20+ years. As for the Sidewinders, they'll meet the demand and produce motors indefinately. Remember, APBA Stock Outboard is not their only group of customers, just the first. There is a world wide market out there. The opportunities are endless. Wherever there is water, there are boats. Wherever there are boats, there is competition.

    Knowledge defeats fear every time.

    Jeff, We left 25xsh alone to grow or die.
    John Runne
    2-Z

    Stock Outboard is all about a level playing field.

    True parity is one motor per class.

    It's RACING, not just another boat ride!

    NOT a representative of Racing Outboards LLC.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by B Walker View Post
      ***

      A more interesting question to me is why wasnt it renewed?

      ***.
      Brad: Every committee must have a purpose. The purpose of the Steering Committee when I originally appointed it was to make recommendations to the SORC for a long term plan. The committee met, created a plan and made its recommendations. Some of the recommendations were adopted by the SORC. Some were not.

      The committee fulfilled its purpose. There was no reason to have it continue to exist if it had no further purpose.

      I'm an "ends kinda guy", too. Feeling good about having a committee with no purpose is not an end I am interested in.
      14-H

      "That is NOT why people hate me." - 14-H.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by csh2z View Post
        Don,
        ***As an example look at 20ssh. We have a motor out of production since 1979 and a new motor designed specifically to run in that speed range. ***Rather than being reactive and do nothing as in the past, we had an opportunity to be proactive so that everybody would know what options were available in the future. We thought it necessary to to inform people BEFORE the numbers dropped to a point where the classes survival was in jeopardy. ***Knowledge defeats fear every time.

        ***.
        John: I will say this again as I've said it 100 times in the past: The problem with this analysis is that there are no new engines sitting on pallats ready for shipment. The years that were proposed were arbitrary, pulled right out of thin air and had no basis in fact. There was and is no guarantee that there will be sufficient new engines to meet the demand created by the phased out engines. It is akin to living in "La-La Land" by establishing those arbitrary dates for phasing the old engines out.

        Even more disturbing, the SORC that implemented that plan also approved aftermarket parts for the engines that were supposed to be phased out. It also, unilaterally killed an engine that is still in production to this day in favor of one that has not been produced for over a decade in the A class.

        The better plan, and the one I still support, is to permit new engines to come into the classes and manage the parity. It worked in the J, AXS, C and D classes (although VERY slow in C). It will work in A, B and 25 too.

        Last edited by 14-H; 09-23-2010, 08:27 AM. Reason: to express frustration!
        14-H

        "That is NOT why people hate me." - 14-H.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by 14-H View Post
          The better plan, and the one I still support, is to permit new engines to come into the classes and manage the parity. It worked in the J, AXS,
          Parity? in J and ASX. what parity? we must use different dictionaries.

          It will work in A, B and 25 too.
          Parity? or J division style of parity?




          "The Coffee Guy"
          TEAM CAFFEINE
          Cranked up and ready to Roll


          Worrying does not empty tomorrow of its troubles. It empties today of its strengths (Corrie ten Boom)

          "Cup of Joe? Not no mo! Kevs Coffee is the only way to go!" (John Runne 09)
          " IF you can find a better cup of coffee... Kev will drink it!" (Michael Mackey 08)

          Comment


          • Keep thinking I’m protecting my own engine box…let me say this one more time…I AM NOT PROTECTING MY OWN BOX…TO QUOTE MY DAD…”THESE ENGINES OWN US NOTHING”. I STARTED RACING 20 IN 1981 AND WE HAVE HAD MANY A GOOD SEASONS SINCE THEN WITH THEM. Have we bought more? Sure. I even bought another one this year full well knowing they could not be the engine of choice in the very near future. That’s what you do, to try and keep winning. Will I ever by a sidewinder? Don’t know, we will cross that bridge when we have to. Hell I don’t know if we’re going racing sometimes until Thursday night, how do I know what we’re going to race 3 years from now.

            This is the last time (I think) I’m posting this because I’m just tired of this fight. I have been doing this since 1969 and I’m most likely not going anywhere, like I said, tell me the rules we are playing with this year and we’ll play or we’ll switch classes or categories but we’ll still be here somewhere. I have said this before I was one of the people in the 80’s that sent my good Yamato to Mercury to be scraped. Then 3 months later we reversed that decision so it’s nothing new to me.

            I personally am worried about the fringe racers. The people that can’t afford to go buy a new engine/boat/props, the people that only want to race 3/4 weekends a summer. Someone said, “maybe they shouldn’t be racing”. Really? We loose a lot of them we won’t have a S.O. category. I don’t want to use names and would not want to embarrass anyone (other than my family or Mike Pavlick) but I can think of maybe 3 or 4 racers in 20 alone that maybe would not be able to keep racing if we told them in 3 years their engine is no longer legal.

            Should the new engines eventually be the engine of choice? Sure, but it should be over time. Problem I personally have with what we are trying to do is change everything in one big swoop. Change one class and if we loose a few it’s not detrimental to our category, region, club. Change several classes and we could potentially change racing as we know it if we are not careful.

            Do I support Dean proposal? Yes. Other than telling someone to buy a 302 under our current structure I could not feel good about myself steering them in any other class. Here is the funny thing about Deans proposal. After looking at it…it most likely would have very little impact on the racing over here. We don’t run 25H or 25R nor BSH on a lot of weekends. I see us saving 2 heats because we won’t be running the current BSH. Would be easy to say no I don’t support it because it has little impact on our racing. But I feel it helps racing as a whole so I do support it. I steered my buddy Ruben into 45 several years ago because I could not in good faith put him in a S.O. class. But I wanted him in racing so I suggested 45.
            "Ask anyone, I have no friends. I do have some people that put up with me and mostly because they like the rest of my family"

            Don Allen

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Kev43V View Post
              Parity? or J division style of parity?
              Kev: The Mercury was introduced in the J Classes in 1999. That was 11 years ago. It was not until the last 3 years or so that a Merc won any of the nationals or set any records in the J Classes. Thus, a new, currently-produced engine was introduced into a class that had an out-of-production engine that was widely-used. A decade later, the owners of the old engine are now faced with replacing that engine if they want to win.

              That is MY definition of parity and a good phase-in.
              Last edited by 14-H; 09-23-2010, 09:10 AM.
              14-H

              "That is NOT why people hate me." - 14-H.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Big Don View Post
                ***This is the last time (I think) I’m posting this because I’m just tired of this fight. I have been doing this since 1969 and I’m most likely not going anywhere, ***.
                Don: On just this page, I'm arguing with the guy who supports the new engines and the guy who supports the old ones.

                I'm not going anywhere faster than you are!!!


                14-H

                "That is NOT why people hate me." - 14-H.

                Comment


                • Don. If this was directed directly at me for ribbing you a bit. I am truly sorry.
                  I had a conversation we had in mind. In that conversation you had pointed out some flaws with my logic and you were right. a SMALL part of that was how yes you were protecting your motor box but not because it was YOUR box. You were trying to look out for the 1/3 or so racers in stock that run Yamato. and SOMEONE does have to look out for those interests.




                  "The Coffee Guy"
                  TEAM CAFFEINE
                  Cranked up and ready to Roll


                  Worrying does not empty tomorrow of its troubles. It empties today of its strengths (Corrie ten Boom)

                  "Cup of Joe? Not no mo! Kevs Coffee is the only way to go!" (John Runne 09)
                  " IF you can find a better cup of coffee... Kev will drink it!" (Michael Mackey 08)

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by mercguy View Post
                    *** I can pretty much bet the Merc 15 will not stay in production past the 2017 year (or right around there). Same could probably be said for the Tohatsu M50D. With the decreased selling of "dirty" 2 strokes, the manufacturers will just stop wasting their time and energy and use the production facilities for something that is "green" and that they can market and sell. ***!
                    Vote Republican in November! It's important for boat racing!!!
                    14-H

                    "That is NOT why people hate me." - 14-H.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Kev43V View Post
                      Don. If this was directed directly at me for ribbing you a bit. I am truly sorry.
                      **.
                      Kev: remember, Don doesn't necessarily agree with everything he says!
                      14-H

                      "That is NOT why people hate me." - 14-H.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by 14-H View Post
                        Kev: remember, Don doesn't necessarily agree with everything he says!
                        Heck, I don't know if I belive anything I say anymore. The voices in my heard are confusing me.

                        Kev, No worries... not you....and even if it were...no big deal I love almost everyone even if they upset me on here. We'll everyone other than the one Pavlick.
                        "Ask anyone, I have no friends. I do have some people that put up with me and mostly because they like the rest of my family"

                        Don Allen

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by 14-H View Post
                          Kev: The Mercury was introduced in the J Classes in 1999. That was 11 years ago. It was not until the last 3 years or so that a Merc won any of the nationals or set any records in the J Classes. Thus, a new, currently-produced engine was introduced into a class that had an out-of-production engine that was widely-used. A decade later, the owners of the old engine are now faced with replacing that engine if they want to win.

                          That is MY definition of parity and a good phase-in.
                          Ed
                          I do not want to see OMC's become dominant in J again either. I also do not want to see the A sidewinder be as dominant in A as the merc now is in J
                          for some time to come. Or there will not be an A class. I should have not missed your comment "HAD parity" I think I read "have parity"

                          PS ask Kori to send me the recipe for that " fast gas " LOL
                          Last edited by Kev43V; 09-23-2010, 09:29 AM.




                          "The Coffee Guy"
                          TEAM CAFFEINE
                          Cranked up and ready to Roll


                          Worrying does not empty tomorrow of its troubles. It empties today of its strengths (Corrie ten Boom)

                          "Cup of Joe? Not no mo! Kevs Coffee is the only way to go!" (John Runne 09)
                          " IF you can find a better cup of coffee... Kev will drink it!" (Michael Mackey 08)

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by big don View Post
                            heck, i don't know if i belive anything i say anymore. The voices in my heard are confusing me.

                            kev, no worries... Not you....and even if it were...no big deal i love almost everyone even if they upset me on here. We'll everyone other than the one pavlick.
                            roflmbo




                            "The Coffee Guy"
                            TEAM CAFFEINE
                            Cranked up and ready to Roll


                            Worrying does not empty tomorrow of its troubles. It empties today of its strengths (Corrie ten Boom)

                            "Cup of Joe? Not no mo! Kevs Coffee is the only way to go!" (John Runne 09)
                            " IF you can find a better cup of coffee... Kev will drink it!" (Michael Mackey 08)

                            Comment


                            • Don,
                              I used 20ssh as an example. I did not mean to suggest anything derogatory about you or anybody else. I was describing the thought process that we went through at the time.
                              John Runne
                              2-Z

                              Stock Outboard is all about a level playing field.

                              True parity is one motor per class.

                              It's RACING, not just another boat ride!

                              NOT a representative of Racing Outboards LLC.

                              Comment


                              • Don, and everyone
                                My concerns with B actually have very little to do with trying to run the class. It has everything to do with the mixed message it sends to potential new names. we have a new motor for B! 2 years later, OOPS, no we don't. etc.
                                I am more than happy to run B with the 20,s so you and everyone else do not have to watch 4 boat parades. in the wasted time of 2 heats
                                while it is rarely a case in our region. How do you feel about:
                                if we have 5 CSH and 4 20's they all go out together? scored separately of course!
                                Last edited by Kev43V; 09-23-2010, 09:56 AM.




                                "The Coffee Guy"
                                TEAM CAFFEINE
                                Cranked up and ready to Roll


                                Worrying does not empty tomorrow of its troubles. It empties today of its strengths (Corrie ten Boom)

                                "Cup of Joe? Not no mo! Kevs Coffee is the only way to go!" (John Runne 09)
                                " IF you can find a better cup of coffee... Kev will drink it!" (Michael Mackey 08)

                                Comment

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