SO Class Reduction Proposal

[STEVE FRENCH]

Dean and Jeff---- A place you might think about the 25SS hydro is in mod with the 25mod (400cc) hydro. I just glanced at the 3 mile 3 lap and the 25ss was 60.8 and I think my record I just set at Dayton was right at 61.1 ??...Set at different places, so need to compare apples to apples... This was a quick glance and you could look at records, races where they raced on the same day etc. The 400 needs some help and could be a benefit to both. Obviously the parity committee will have to check it out closely. The 400's will want Joe Z to have a deep height restriction!!!!!LOL

Rick Miller
34-0

Just might fly DOC!!!

Timing is everything.....This has been proposed several times in da past.....Mike 61S-right?....We just seemed ta keep get'n pointed ta CMH........Then I lead a lap with my XS in BMH at da Winter Nationals Finish'n second ta Billy Alan in da first heet when they needed a 3rd rig.......DOH!!!..........

Here 25MOD is again on da verge of probation............Just give it some thought folks.

Same gearfoot/boats....BMH don't want either engine (Till only 2 yamatos show) .....Stock might toss them........Welcome ta 25MOD Jeff!!.....Ya just gott'a wear ear plugs as Doc and I run with ya in'ta Da first turn!.......Jeff>..35-O>......100N>>>

OOPs ...New problem....Me and Mike Marshal/Mike Theirfelder/etc/.... run both......(How self'ish is dat!)........Hey between da two classes I have four rigs available.......Drivers NEEDED.

Give it a shot Jeff.....Both class's need help.......Mod Commissioners......please take note.....(Really should be a no-brain'r)..
(Hey might even give ya a chance ta rub paint with the 12M boat!!!!...."and rub'n IS RACE'N son"....see my sig pic below!)

Pass da pop-corn....and da ammunition.

[csh12M]

Great idea 25SSH to 400MH!

Rick Miller you win the gold start, your suggestion running with 40CC Hydro is awesome. In my opinion it is the missing piece to the equation! I will contact the MOD chairman and get working on that. Please provide me with any testing speed info. you can. We need a data set to have a chance. If you can run a little further with it Rick contact Steve Wheeler and see if he has data and test the water. My Dad may also have some GPS speeds from the season he ran it.

[rossman]

25ssh

I would be willing to bet you will lose more members from 25 then you will gain from consolidating classes. I'm not willing to toss all my stuff aside and start over. I will spend the weekends out on my pleasure boat. That will be 1 less 25xs you guys can bash.

[csh12M]

National Fix vrs. a Local Fix

Why don't I just cut to the class structure I want at the club level and build from their?

I have had this question a few times.

I could try, but again I think it is treating the symptom not the problem. Here are two good reasons why.

Reason one:

Racer Schools work, next step, we need to all be selling the same message and classes from East coast to West coast! What I am proposing gives each class a clear consistent sales pitch. First you decide the racers preference Hydro or Runabout, next evaluate his weight, which should slot him into a class or narrow down to two choices, next evaluate budget and preference (new motor/old motor) so you know whether to buy new or used. We will all be selling the same way will see some consistent results and long term growth. I actually feel like I made a mistake with my neighbor, Doug Wellings (MHRA Racer School class of 08) I steered him into BSH because our club needed it to keep BSH on the water. (three at every race) We now lose one BSH and he doesn't race....and he really wants to race! It is discouraging for him. I should of steered him into 20SSH or ASH.

Reason two:

At the club level we have limited number of people putting on the race. Everyone in MHRA now has to chip in to get five races run per year. The question I have heard when I have proposed this is: I pay the same entry fee why does my class have to be combined? Why do four BSH run with four 20SSH but four CSH don't.... ok, so now you say...we will develop some rules that govern the combination, problem with that is I am not sure who will and wont show ahead of time. Maybe we combine, maybe we don't? So what is the problem with that? If I can't plan for a consistent schedule I can not run three times in two days. I have to wait until race day and cobble together things the best I can. Then when the husband of the chief scorer gets thrown in with something and is upset about it, she quits scoring our races and they go race MOD anyway. Additionally, in my neck of the woods, if we can't get four entries the other three all scratch. They don't seem to want to go for a three boat ride that does not count. I know that may be a local phenomenon.

My thoughts are let's fix it right, fix it National. Let's make it easier for the clubs not harder. Remember, APBA already saddled the clubs with responsibility for hosting their own Racer Schools. As gratifying as Racer School is, it is a LOT of work to do.

[Tomtall]

25ssr

25ssr however is an issue, top 0 still runs it and your getting entries at local races so I dont know.... you must consider people like Adam Low who I think (not speaking for them) his parents were holding him back from CSR to run 25 why I dont know --- a little slower?? less people in class?? reason Tom?? so these things need consideration.

Todd - We chose to put Adam in 25ssr for a few reasons.

1. Body weight - After talking with a few CSR drivers they felt he would have issues being able to control the heavier CSR class boat with only 150 lbs. of baby fat. We would have to add a far amount of weight also to the McCourty closed course boat to make CSR weight.

2. Stepping up from "A" class - We thought the speeds would be slower so he would be able to gain experience before going to CSR. This has proven mute however as alot of the 25SSR boats (both mercury and Yamato run within CSR speeds due to weight differences).Less racers in the class at local races. This has proven mute as well. We have had 8 + boats racing. Many of them being CSR drivers running restrictors.

3. Cost - Just like the original "J" OMC class we could run more classes with the same engine. Just remove restrictor and go. Still a great plus for new people coming into the sport by the way. Plenty of good equipment at good prices. We were able to sell our "A" equipment and use the money to bump up in into the Yamato classes with not much additional cost outlay.


The ability to be able to enter this class (25SSR) was very appealing to us as a racing family due to the above metioned reasons. I talked with another father at Big Rapids that is nagotiating to buy some good 25 equipment (Yamato powered) as well but do to the fact his son weighs less than our son he planes on running the smaller restrictor so they can run the lower weight that's allowed in this class. Another plus with this class.

[raceboat61-S]

Gents,
For one season (I think in 2005?) the 25SSH was allowed in 25Mod in probationary status. Bob Schmidt (390-S) and I switched off and ran either our 25XS or our Merc 25Mods. We ran equally all season. Consistently at 66-68 mph on the straight with either engine. 25Mod had a small advantage in acceleration due to the 30# difference in legal weight and the fact that we had to run the 25XS at the Stock legal depth.
I don't want to see 25SSH dropped from the stock race card anymore than Steve F., Rossman, or Jeff Brewster. However if anecdotal data is worth anything, these two classes run at the same speeds in my experience of running both for the last 7 years. By 2008 my Hemp 25SSH finished 3rd at the Nationals behind Joey, and Tom S. running then at about 70mph (and a good start). I ran 3rd in my Hemp 400Mod as well, behind Dr Rick and Steve Wheeler again running at 70mph. They are as close as any 2 distinctly different engines can be.
I WON'T race my 25SSH with the Stock CSH. They carve a trench that my small, agile boats just can't handle. At those speeds it is too 'active' to be fun. If I am forced into Mod with the 25XS, the first thing I'd do is get rid of the gearfoot and go to a long-blade 25SS foot and a 4-blade prop.
Last but not least....you asked my opinion, so here it is. STOCK REALIGNMENT...."Make all the Yamato's run in the same class. The 80's, 102's, 302's are all close enough to compete with some weight changes between them for parity." Also, no more Yamato's in 25SSR, this is a Merc, Hot Rod, Sidewinder class. There, I said it. You Yamato drivers that want to run 2 classes with the same engine....buy a runabout! Mike Raceboat61-S

[Tomtall]

raceboat

Also, no more Yamato's in 25SSR, this is a Merc, Hot Rod, Sidewinder class. There, I said it. You Yamato drivers that want to run 2 classes with the same engine....buy a runabout! Mike Raceboat61-S

If you do this you will have 2-3 boat fields in 25SSR running only the Merc's/Sidwinder/Hotrods. Isn't that what we are trying to get away from? The Sidewinder 20 is not selling well due to the wait and see crowd. The Hot Rods parts availabilty is not that good.Region 6 has had one or two Mercury boats competing with the Yamatos this summer in 25SSR. That's it. Peter Larers dad is wondering why the heck he bought his son the Mercury equipment when no other Mercurys have shown up all summer other than at the divisionals. The 25XS Merc. may have roots on the east coast but they sure are dieing a slow death in the midwest.

[Kev43V]

Why don't I just cut to the class structure I want at the club level and build from their?

I have had this question a few times.

I could try, but again I think it is treating the symptom not the problem. Here are two good reasons why.

Reason one:

Racer Schools work,
I could not agree more. And we all thank you guys for both the vision and the effort pulling it off that has inspired us to do it too
next step, we need to all be selling the same message and classes from East coast to West coast!
What I am proposing gives each class a clear consistent sales pitch. First you decide the racers preference Hydro or Runabout, next evaluate his weight, which should slot him into a class or narrow down to two choices, next evaluate budget and preference (new motor/old motor) so you know whether to buy new or used. We will all be selling the same way and should see some consistent results and long term growth. I actually feel like I made a mistake with my neighbor, Doug Wellings (MHRA class of 08) I steered him into BSH because our club needed it to keep BSH on the water. (three at every race) We now lose one BSH and he doesn't race....and he really wants to race! It is discouraging for him. I should of steered him into 20SSH or ASH.

Reason two:

At the club level we have limited number of people putting on the race. Everyone in MHRA now has to chip in to get five races run per year. The question I have heard when I have proposed this is: I pay the same entry fee why does my class have to be combined? Why do four BSH run with four 20SSH but four CSH don't.... I think we should not give them the option, if you only have 4 boat you WILL combine with like classes. ok, so now you say...we will develop some rules that govern the combination, problem with that is I am not sure who will and wont show ahead of time. Maybe we combine, maybe we don't? So what is the problem with that? If I can't plan for a consistent schedule I can not run three times in two days. I have to wait until race day and cobble together things the best I can. Then when the husband of the chief scorer gets thrown in with something and is upset about it, she quits scoring our races and they go race MOD anyway. I will leave this one alone Additionally, in my neck of the woods, if we can't get four entries the other three all scratch. They don't seem to want to go for a three boat ride that does not count. I know that may be a local phenomenon.
it is not. on the other hand if you HAD mod on the sanction. You could run A mod if they want to run that for points. OR when you have four or more boats they can run BSH if that is what they prefer. If all of this is going on with the 20's And here is a thought. Instead of mandating the change to 20, what if instead you ALLOWED the step up to 20? Now you have really opened up some more options for those motors and drivers. While also allowing flexibility to fit what is actually being raced region to region. while i try very hard to not actually steer someone into a class, I do try to point out the pitfalls and advantages of their options based on the above criteria you laid out above. For what it is worth, I agree on your order of precedence also. But guys like Bob buying a new B sidewinder hoping for growth could always race

My thoughts are let's fix it right, fix it National. Let's make it easier for the clubs not harder. Remember, APBA already saddled the clubs with responsibility for hosting their own Racer Schools. As gratifying as Racer School is, it is a LOT of work to do.

My thoughts are make the step ups legal that are required to implement what you feel we should end up with. then force consolidation of lower boat count heats. If for instance you have 8 B hydros and four C hydros and four 20, hydros. then like it or not the 20's and C's run together. if the 20's and C's do not like it they need to work their butts off to get more 20's and C's on the water. or in our regions case. we have 6 or more C hydros, 6 20's and some times 4 B's the four B's can suck it up and run with the 20's and I will continue to try to get more B's on the water! give it a few years. The numbers will reflect where those drivers prefer to gravitate. You will then have real valid data on where we should end up on class structure.

[Heliarc]

Here is something else to think about:

If we keep doing what we been doing will we keep getting what we been getting?

BW

Yes, you will. That is how things got to where they are today. My point that I was trying (and evidently failed at) to make was this. This situation took a long time to create. Taking a shotgun to it in a short period of time is not likely to produce the positive results one might think - for the present OR future.

Today there are only a fraction of racing outboard drivers left compared to 30-40 years ago. Is driving a percentage of those remaining people away by ticking them off helpful?

People don't have to agree (and some don't) nor like each other (and some don't), but the remaining people need to find a way to somehow work together. I know that is easier said than done most of the time, but in my view, that is what needs to happen for the survival of this sport. Changes need to be made, but I would be hopeful that they would come in a slow and steady manner and not like a freight train. One example of a freight train: Approving an engine and then a short time later telling the people that coughed up $4,500 for that engine that they can't run it anymore without converting it to something else.

[STEVE FRENCH]

Gents,
Last but not least....you asked my opinion, so here it is. STOCK REALIGNMENT...."Make all the Yamato's run in the same class. The 80's, 102's, 302's are all close enough to compete with some weight changes between them for parity." Also, no more Yamato's in 25SSR, this is a Merc, Hot Rod, Sidewinder class. There, I said it. You Yamato drivers that want to run 2 classes with the same engine....buy a runabout! Mike Raceboat61-S

Now there's one that will git a few motor box huggers/protectors (Yamato) ta spit-up/spray der computer screens with der first cup of coffee!!!!!!!
(Hope it was'nt one of Kevs blends!!!)
Kinda scary when da ammo is fly'n yer way....huuh?......ZING!..DUCK!.......

Here's a scary thought.......Let's fallow General Motors ..(errr da Fed's)... game plan.......declare bankruptsy,......let the Fed bail us out......take the stimulis money......Have Japan show us how ta build boat-race bet'n parlors/stadiums......and offer (new) shares of common stock.
Then China can buy/scoop it up and have a place ta entertain der new (and much shorter!) GM.....Executives!..............(How do ya OOPS in Chinees?....BONZI!!.?)

Just a politically (and H/R) incorrect.......commercial/HUMOR(?)........ break.

Pass da "Kev's coffee" and da bottle of wiskey please.....AND da pop-corn....(better hide da ammunition)...We might need it when the orient wants title to all they own...Zing!....DUCK!

PS.....Jeff B...Rossman..Todd 371-M...When do ya want ta git together and test my 4-blades?......Could meet ya at Charlie Fry's Fun-Run or High Banks.....(I'll bring da ear plugs!)

[14J]

git r done

I’ve drank from the politically tainted waters of APBA and would rather go thirsty than drown in that self serving muck. I will however point out that there are people like Dean, Dana, Scott Reed, etc. that get it. Park the self interest and let these people lead us into the future.

Although there are details to be worked out there are valid and exciting concepts floating around on this forum. As a racer I ask only that swift work be made of our direction. People like me just want a consistent plan so we can map out and begin work on our racing programs. There is nothing worst than the philosophical shifts this sport/category undergoes each and every time there is a new chairperson and/or commission.

Lock it down and let’s move forward!

[raceright]

I’ve drank from the politically tainted waters of APBA and would rather go thirsty than drown in that self serving muck. I will however point out that there are people like Dean, Dana, Scott Reed, etc. that get it. Park the self interest and let these people lead us into the future.

Although there are details to be worked out there are valid and exciting concepts floating around on this forum. As a racer I ask only that swift work be made of our direction. People like me just want a consistent plan so we can map out and begin work on our racing programs. There is nothing worst than the philosophical shifts this sport/category undergoes each and every time there is a new chairperson and/or commission.

Lock it down and let’s move forward!

----------------------------------------------------------
Always happens when there are to many rules

[Big Don]

I’ve drank from the politically tainted waters of APBA and would rather go thirsty than drown in that self serving muck. I will however point out that there are people like Dean, Dana, Scott Reed, etc. that get it. Park the self interest and let these people lead us into the future.

Although there are details to be worked out there are valid and exciting concepts floating around on this forum. As a racer I ask only that swift work be made of our direction. People like me just want a consistent plan so we can map out and begin work on our racing programs. There is nothing worst than the philosophical shifts this sport/category undergoes each and every time there is a new chairperson and/or commission.

Lock it down and let’s move forward!

Troy, I agree 100%. Let's just make the decision quickly and stick to it. I think that is what is hurting us even with our current racers...don't know what direction to go.

[bryanlauer]

25ssr

your right tom why did I buy 25 stuff.because Ithought 25 & sidewinder were going to be together. at 145# cant run csr and peter is not ready.will wait and see what happens.probally cheaper to race cars.

[Jeff Brewster 59s]

Rick Miller you win the gold start, your suggestion running with 40CC Hydro is awesome. In my opinion it is the missing piece to the equation! I will contact the MOD chairman and get working on that. Please provide me with any testing speed info. you can. We need a data set to have a chance. If you can run a little further with it Rick contact Steve Wheeler and see if he has data and test the water. My Dad may also have some GPS speeds from the season he ran it.

Dean, did you read my previous message? I already presented this to the Morc in Seattle. I am sure your father can explain why it did not pass better than me. Maybe the heat times from the two classes from previous races would be better to use than testing data.

Steve, it is a scarey day when I can understand what you are typin' (LOL) !
My proposal was to run the 25ssh (in the stock formation and rules) in 400cc Hydro. I do not feel we would achieve parity by going to four blades. My hope was to keep it simple.