SO Class Reduction Proposal

[MGallagher]

Maybe we should look at it as a sale? FOR SALE: APBA Stock Outboard Racing...etc....

How would you pitch this in the Lions Den to a bunch of millionaires. I sure wouldn't tell them that we use 35+ yr old motors. That would be my first concern.

[Jeff Brewster 59s]

Dean and those on the band wagon,
Your plan has alot of merit and should have taken place twenty years ago. I tried to accomplish something like this locally and was pretty much laughed out of the room. Now we are seeing low entries at races and it is peaking some interest.
Of course I must once again fight for my class. Please leave 25ssh alone. It is not hurting your schedule or any other. On the east coast and Canada it is still a viable class and usually one of the largest. You do not travel there like I do and see this. The idea of it in CSH and not be the motor of choice will leave many with out a ride. Many of our 25 drivers are older guys in the twilight of their careers and should not be pushed out because we don't fit in the plan. Would it kill the plan to have J, A, B, C, D and 25ssh to keep from loosing twenty drivers?
Thanks for reading, Jeff

[csh12M]

Kev43V

Kev43V. please take the emotion out of it. Please do not stop promoting SO.

This is no conspiracy, I have no hidden agenda, no one is shooting from the "grassy knoll" it is a civilized point by point discussion around our racing classes.

I know and have validated how hard you have worked for the sport, you are everything right about it. I also said I would not support anything that would leave the blue Sidewinder out in the cold. Anyone who has that motor needs to be applauded for the time and effort they put in. You have proved that Racing Outboards can and does produce a reliable product that gives our sport hope for the future.

All I wanted to do it facilitate a civilized discussion, without emotion on where the sport and categories go into the future. Racer schools have proven successful, but that is only the first step, not the final step. I feel we have a chance now to fix the structure with minimum impact and acceptable options. However, if the majority think it is not needed, then so be it. Let's move on.

The last thing I want to do is lose anyone friendship over this discussion (which is why I quit being a commissioner years ago) . I am just trying to facilitate an exchange of ideas and get a feel for what people want?

[Kev43V]

“Yet Andy Hanson with very little testing on their A. was at the back of the pack with the A. That gives the appearance in the Midwest that the A winder is not even a threat to the poor to mid range Omcs. Yet for some reason I do not think anyone believes that to be true”

Hanson won 1 heat I believe with the Sidewinder in ASH this weekend. The next heat he ran last I believe. Now I don’t know why but I do know they were looking at the Carb between heats so maybe they made a change and it didn’t work.

point well taken Don! I too am sure the A will have to be slowed down. and thats cool with me.

[Richard Hearn]

Dean, Your taking some heat and so I wanted to give you some encouragement. Stay with this. It is generally the right thing to do for the sport and most everybody (who separates themselves from their own situation) will agree. Turnaround situations are difficult (and that is EXACTLY what this is). It requires a refocus back to the basics. Folks vested in the sport will go through their 1. Denial and Isolation. 2. Anger. 3. Bargaining. 4. Depression. 5. Acceptance phases (on different time frames). In the end, we can and will get this up-righted. There are just too many folks that love to race boats (and yes, I'm happy that I got back into it -- whole hog -- after nearly 10 years). The suffering we'll go through pursuing these changes are far less than the suffering we'll go through in a slow death...

PS. The brand that APBA has could be leveraged in the Digital world to finance the club shortfalls if they didn't continue to piss it away. But, that is for another thread at another time...

[csh12M]

Jeff

Jeff,

Thanks for chiming in, you are the one I thought of first when I proposed it. I would hate to hurt your class and program from a personal standpoint! You are my friend, so don't read my following questions with emotion, as I stated, I just wanted to have a discussion? I have no agenda here.

I know that we have about 20 25SSH drivers around the country. They had a full field at Dunville, 12 boats! However, it has no long term growth potential for new name racers. I cant tell one of our racer school graduates, in good faith, to purchase it. Yes, I am sure we could keep it, but by the same token we will keep the current B classes and 20 classes. Nothing will change, we can discuss National class or local classes, been their done that. If that is what people want I will back out and stop asking, because it is the same retreaded arguments over and over. In the end no "real" growth takes place.

My question and reformatting of the classes is centered around the idea of "real" new name growth. I think SO should step up and be the category that decides, we will get our house in order and every class will be "sellable," in good faith, to new name racers. I concede we may take a step back in membership and my hope is MOD will take a step forward by scooping up any entries we lose. Again I ask, is that such a bad thing? After the first season SO will now be positioned for sustained LONG term new name growth.

Again Jeff, thanks for chiming in, for sure under what I proposed 25SSH would be the hardest hit. It is the class on the outside looking in, and would most likely be a causality. However, I would much rather get you into a CSH. I know we could lose you...but how can I gain the new member in the future if we don't fix this now. We shouldn't have such a fractured schedule between our races.

Sidenote- I am fairly certain CBF would still run 25SSH which is where the majority of them are located.

Again Jeff, I value our friendship, the discussion is just that,.. discussion. I have no agenda, just want to see us move forward.

[Jeff Brewster 59s]

We're friends, really?

Dean,
I won't leave mad, I'll just leave like many others. Why would I toss two boats, two motors and many props into the trash for the good of the plan?
25ssh is surprisingly the cheapest class to get into right now. So, let's toss it out?
Thanks for the CSH advice, I won 2-US in that back in '89. Been there, done that.
AOF, NBRA, CBF are you watching this??? This is a great chance to add some new members!
Thanks for reading, Jeff
(38 straight years of paying APBA membership dues and getting tossed out like yesterday's garbage)

[Dave M]

Quick Point

With the rule of no new engines in Mod allowed to have pipes, I don't think it will be easy for the Sidewinder to simply bolt on pipes and run Mod, am I missing something here ? I might be wrong, was there a special exception passed for this engine ? Just want to make sure someone does not support this proposal based on a fact that is potentially not correct. I thought the sidewinder was legal in its stock form to run in mod.

Here is another point to consider for long term growth. If you begin growing participants in the sport, your class structure eventually will need further reductions. The day will get very long once again as we will have many elimination heats. So think about this now while positioning yourselves for long term growth and class restructuring.

[DiGia54D]

With the rule of no new engines in Mod allowed to have pipes, I don't think it will be easy for the Sidewinder to simply bolt on pipes and run Mod, am I missing something here ? I might be wrong, was there a special exception passed for this engine ? Just want to make sure someone does not support this proposal based on a fact that is potentially not correct. I thought the sidewinder was legal in its stock form to run in mod.

Here is another point to consider for long term growth. If you begin growing participants in the sport, your class structure eventually will need further reductions. The day will get very long once again as we will have many elimination heats. So think about this now while positioning yourselves for long term growth and class restructuring.

Dave,
I believe he is talking about the pipes that are on the 80's 102's and 302's. Not the open exhaust

[Kev43V]

Dean My feelings today of no longer being able to promote stock may very well go away. The reason for it has nothing to do with "your" plan. it has everything to do with the push to change the plan every year. It has been that way every single year since I started. and every 2 years it is a success. The problem is, it is not that the plan that is successful but that CHANGING the plan is a success. I have taken the time to have in depth conversations with as many or more potential newbies as ANYONE in stock outboard. Yet in the last half of this season I have found it hard to have those indepth converstions with people due to hearing thoughts of once again changing the plan.while it has not been spelled out on HR untill now the hints have been there in the pits. I HATE telling people this is the plan, to find out after the National meeting that it is no longer the plan.
I feel If I had only put as much effort and time into racing as I have promoting I could have had a successful racing season. I did not mind that sacrifice. As I felt it was best for the sport. Sure I had at least small part in bringing several new racers into the fold.
But I feel now that my intergity has suffered (at least in my own mind) by telling people information two years ago, that was no longer true last year. Now I have spent this year telling people information that may very well not be true next year. THAT is what I feel I can not continue to do. I have been assured that this is the plan too many times since 2004 to believe that if this plan goes foward it will not be changed next year. Last year I had people sending me PM's and calling me out on how I supported one plan one year and then another plan the next. Well guess what it had less to do with weither I agreed with the plan than the fact that it was the plan. 04 and 05 were exceptions to that since We spent 2 years trying to get an OMC at all. (before any of you had met us) then the next 3 years trying to get a decent OMC. then we were told the OMC was going to be mandated out of the class and yes I hit the roof.
This left me assured of one thing: Mandating a motor away is not a good idea

I feel it would be better to combine the running of classes, scored seperately. When a class can not put out a GOOD field of boats. (6 or even 7 min. boats is fine with me) It still allows for the growth of the class and reduces the number of heats in the day AND ends 4 boat parades. Then 25 only runs with C's where there are not enough 25's to be a viable class.Yet the few areas (1?) that 25 is a solid class they can do their thing. it still can remain a national class. I do not have a problem if at the Nationals if you can not put at least 6 ?or more boats on the water you can not get a Nationals title. if you can put 8 20 hydros and 8 C hydros on the water at your races cool run both. If you have 4 20's and 8 C's combine the running of them.

[Matt Dagostino]

Easy guys.............

Ok, so much for leaving emotion out of it.

I will make it easier on you. I will leave. I have been riding the fence for a while, and I see no sustainable hope for the future. I don't need to stick around for another 15 years to be the last one racing.

I remember when you won 2US in 89, wood boat, white and orange trimmed. You were top gun in CSH! BTW that was when it mattered, when it was hard to win the points in a class.

Remember we are on Hydroracer to exchange ideas and banter. No one wants to hurt one another but just put out some 'food for thought'. I am sure Dean and everyone else is just putting some thoughts on the table and that in Detroit we will do nothing in terms of class structure at the end of the day. But all this discussion is interesting!

Oh, and in 1989 the Captain won the CSH Nationals at Lawrenceville, Pa in addition to 25ssh and DSH. Just keeping the record straight!! And my friend Jeff took 2-US honors!

Now rock on!!

[Kev43V]

If anyone caught the part I deleted besides Bill. PLEASE disregard it. I took one comment out of the "Future of" thread and blew it all out of proportion.

[csh2z]

Kum bi ya anyone?

[Kev43V]

I also am not sure why 1/3 of our members should get 1/2 the classes with the same rig

[BP125V]

clubs

I think some of what we are trying to do here needs to be driven from the club level. Right now a club can schedule whatever classes they want, they can leave classes off the schedule, they can combine classes if they want and they can run local classes.

It is up to the club to put on a good show for their spectators and potential new members, as well as for the sponsor, and even to some extent for ourselves (Big Don anyways). I was glad to see BSOA combine BSH with the 20's at Oshkosh and PP.

We may not all agree how how to combine classes at the National level, but I do hope we can all agree that it is pretty tough to sell the sport to new name racers and sponsors if you run 3 or 4 boat classes.

Bill