SO Class Reduction Proposal

[Richard Hearn]

J, A, B, C, D. It is the only future

J, A, B, C, D. It is the only future. Nice work Dean for coming up with a plan that gets 90% of the solution. It seems the community here is only tweaking it now. If we spend 1/10 the amount of time pushing it through (as we have in the last week discussing it), we might have a fighting chance at a future in the sport.

BSR: Roll up or Sidefin? I love the rollup ride. It is the closest thing we have to a JetSki / Seadoo / tunnel boat ride. That said, I don't see a reason to mandate it. Terry Kerr kicks some serious tail with his rollup ASR. Plus, I kind of like the idea of a rollup for Lockhaven and a side fin for Dayton. Know that you will have some racers that will have two boats for different courses.

[26V]

Another way of looking at it Dean is to keep BSH and BSR as viable classes for the smaller drivers. In my opinion it will be detrimental to Stock Outboards to regulate lighter drivers to just one class. What classes do you propose for the 130-170 lb drivers? If you weight 170 to run B you would still have to add 40lb of lead. that is more then enough for any boat.
my avitar is my current BSR with an OMC and 25LB's of lead. That would be 45lb's to run B. minus 10 in motor weight and plus 10 to meet the class minimum. I can almost live with that.

[Richard Hearn]

And please, work in a way to shorten the schedule (especially on Sunday). Getting home at 2AM Sunday night (Monday morning) is not a way to attract new entrants. The 7 hr drive is one thing, but enable me to get home by 9 or 10pm at the latest... I believe that Dean's proposal of racing 20 heats, twice on Sat and 20 heats once on Sunday accomplishes this.

Last thing, this has to happen on a National level. Only trying it at the local level delays what we all know is the right thing to do, and make too little, probably too late...

[csh12M]

Gene

Ok its half time of Monday night football.

Gene, I was thinking the new BSH would look like this.

- Current 20SSH Yamato80, Yamato302 restricted with the same motor rules and weights 400lbs
- Rotary Valve Hot Rod at 12 CC with the current BSH weight at 365
- 20CI Sidewinder with weight at 365

I am basically saying lets swap the blue motor for the red with the current rules.

Wouldn't this work for you?

Although I am fine with leaving the Blue Sidewinder if that what people want.

I can not see how the current BSR and BSH classes can have outside growth the way they are now. We had a brand new name racer come to Big Rapids to decide what rig he wanted to race. His name is Mike Deck, his weight is 170lbs. I walked him through the pits to show him everything. The first rig we evaluated was Richard Hearns BSR. (Richard was there and listened to the pitch) I told him it was absolutely the best, most fun runabout ride in racing and that he was the perfect weight and size for a BSR or BSH. I also told him he cant find a good rotary valve and if he does the crank is most likely on borrowed time. I then took him to Doug Wellings Sidewinder and let him know he could purchase this new (15 blue) Sidewinder, get essentially the same ride but be 2MPH behind Richard. I let him know that if he works hard tests for a month buys 10 wheels, he might close the gap, but Richard will still have all the punch through the turns. The cost $4,500 in motor another $2k in props. OH, and I had to mention that at half our races this year BSH didn't race because we did not have four.

We then wandered into Sidors pits and looked at his 20SSH and CSH. I went through the same pitch, Yamato80 has been out of production since the 80's. You can buy a 302 drop a restrictor in for 20 pull it add some pounds of lead to the same boat and run CSH. We then walked down met T.J. who will get him a brand new 302 for $2,200 and take care of the race ready for another $500-600. We didn't have to go any further. He decided, Hydro, 20class 302.

Honestly, why does anyone race the current B class? This guy should of been a slam dunk for it, but as a Racer School instructor, that he trusts, how can I put him in it?

[14J]

The challenge would be slowing the Mercury down enough to compete with the CSH while not dominating them.

nor should they be equal to. you're retention strategy focuses on finding a home for what remains of dated equipment. doing so appeases the current membership base. in the short term that is extremely important. i do however believe that ever class needs a clear motor of choice and with any luck it will be a current production model. it needs to be simply for the new guy. he doesn’t need to rummage the junk yard because he see’s Joe Pater win C with a 102 or Joe Z win with a 25. in the case of C the 302 should be the clear choice.

don't muddy the waters of your most successful class.

[pav225]

.

It's not just driving skill. Body weight plays into this as well. As your kid gains weight he/she gets slower in "J" class. His/her driving skills cannot improve if he/she is going backwards. Put them in a "A" boat where they need to add 80 lbs. to make weight to race ------ Down right dangerous.

If you have to add 80 lbs, put them in a bigger boat. Sounds a lot safer to me and you may actually have an advantage on a rough course.

[Richard Hearn]

I asked Jim Fox this weekend when they were getting a BSR (I think we can get most all the tunnel boat racers in the BSR class). He said: "When they figure out how I can get a competitive engine (referencing the blue sidewinder) and one that doesn't grenade (referencing the Hot Rod)". One one the sidelines, just waiting for an answer...

[22W]

Any attempt to make 25SSH run with the CSH's will not work well. They are incompatible motors. You do NOT want to start dropping the height with a 25. On a hydro, it makes a scary ride. The only thing worse than running a 25XS too high was running it too low. It's a touchy motor and a very specific class. It will amplify the already apparent differences already seen in 25SSR. The Yamato traffic will make the 25 ride terrifying and the Merc will be untouchable if it gets out front. I miss my old 25, but my size makes me a C guy all the way.

I sure do wish I had a better answer for this part of the proposal, but I just plain don't. This big 25 problem notwithstanding, I really like the idea of getting back to ABCD classes. Quicker days, more boat time, easier to understand for prospective new guys, the benefits go on. That being said, I know it will be a pain in the butt to try to work it out. The simple truth is that we have to do our best to look ahead instead of in our own motorbox. (I understand that it's easier for me to say that running two 302 classes, but I have landed here via brats and Miller Lite!)

[mercguy]

not yet..........

Rich Runne,

DSR should not be a class, let it run as a local class for the oddball MI race, marathons, and for Top 'O only.

The points summary on the APBA website supports my position. No one races the class.

Bill

with the combination of 25SSR into CSR, that might allow the DSR class to make a comeback...........as the guy that used to race CSR at 500+ pounds really would not have much of a chance to win CSR against a 25SSR rig racing at 405lbs.............

[Kev43V]

[QUOTE=CSH12M;166173]Ok its half time of Monday night football.

Gene, I was thinking the new BSH would look like this.

- Current 20SSH Yamato80, Yamato302 restricted with the same motor rules and weights 400lbs
- Rotary Valve Hot Rod at 12 CC with the current BSH weight at 365
- 20CI Sidewinder with weight at 365

I am basically saying lets swap the blue motor for the red with the current rules.

Wouldn't this work for you?

Although I am fine with leaving the Blue Sidewinder if that what people want.


Dean
Doug Wellings has CHOSEN to not make the latest 2 minute FIX for the 15.
Sorry Doug I like you but it is still true.
It is simply rerouting the water from the top of the block to the top head. Instead of from the top to the bottom of the head. there was such a discrepancy in heat in the lower and upper holes. That when you set timing and carb to not be to hot, but hot in the top hole. The lower hole was way to cold. this reroute both cools the top hole more and brings the temp up in the lower hole. Now the motor can be tuned much leaner and still run even more advance. That change right there is a boost of at LEAST 2 mph plus a great deal more punch in the corners. I had hoped Gene would run BSR over the weekend so we could have seen the change against more Rods.
( I also must admit I am sure it was Eddie that suggested the same change over a year ago)
Also
Some people like the thought of American made and New compared to used stuff from overseas.
I am not knocking Yamato cause they are good motors too. But come on you are selling the potential of the motor way to short.
You are comparing a detuned Sidewinder to a Hotrod that was at least 1/4 of a lap ahead of Eddie at Dayton.
It is not fair to the motor to try to quantify our lack of progress to date as the potential of the motor. It taken us seven years to be able to field a OMC that could stay in front when we get it in front at the start. I know that does not speak well of our skills but it is true. Brian T told me he has only done rudimentary testing with the motor. so that does not count either. I suspect if some of the more savvy racers had undertaken the project seriously. (as some in the west have with the A winder) we would be hearing how it has to be slowed down or it will kill the BSR class. Yet Andy Hanson with very little testing on their A. was at the back of the pack with the A. That gives the appearance in the Midwest that the A winder is not even a threat to the poor to mid range Omcs. Yet for some reason I do not think anyone believes that to be true.
I will not only be very unhappy if I suddenly find myself with the option of the A class as the only safe ride for someone my size in Stock. But I will find it very hard if not impossible to be able with a clear conscience to try to promote Stock outboard as a stable environment for new racers at all. If a NEW motor that was made legal 2 years ago is now without a home at all. How could I?

[Kev43V]

IN truth the cynical side of me sees this plan as a way of the C1,C2,C3 C4, classes to become C1-C6 classes. You must not have any idea how hard it is to explain to a spectator watching the races and at the booth, how all 3 yamato hydro classes that they just saw are not the same. and you want to add 2 more. Talk about confusing. Although I have no doubt how easy it is to convince someone that is heavy enough for C ,how great a buy on a yamato is. When he can then run OSY,20 CSR CSH. and very soon BSH,BSR all with the same motor. Maybe I should break out my rule book and see if I missed any classes. Why not scrap it all and just change it to Stock Outboard Yamato. at least then we can call it S.O.Y or Soy for short.
So Dean what do you tell the 130~160 pound drivers?
I appreciate that in your mind you are trying to do what is best. I also applaud what you and others have done in Michigan with the drivers school etc. But on this I absolutely can not agree with you.
I also feel that getting the numbers of classes down is important and will help the sport in the long run AND will increase driver boat time.

[Kev43V]

One last thing before I get off my soap box Dean. 2 B sidewinders placed ahead of a hotrod, 2 races in a row @ PP. Was it a fluke? It could be, that hotrod rig did not have its usual driver and conditions could be described as bad to poor.( I think this opinion is well substantiated by the number of incident reports that Kristy filled out. Thank you Kristy for jumping in and helping the ref.) I KNOW Jen did not push it as hard as she could have or would have, if she had more time in that boat. I spent some time at 1/2 and 3/4 throttle myself due to the rollers. But with your plan we will never know, now will we?

In truth I expect you will see many B Stockers end up in Mod under your plan. But then maybe thats why you would like to get stock and mod under one commision. Add the A stockers that are either unable or unwilling to go to a sidewinder. That intend to run FA(r/h) when they get beat by a sidewinder in A stock. then I guess you can put the y 80 in A the 102 in B and 202 in C and 302 in D. so the yamatos can live happily ever after as A,B,C,D
Few people actualy complain about the cost of a J Merc. even though after all the bells and tweaks they are within a few hundred of any Sidewinder. even though that motor can only be ran by their kid for a few years. but then under your plan even they get to run their motor more years than those that bought a B winder...

[STEVE FRENCH]

[QUOTE=Kev43V;166192] Why not scrap it all and just change it to Stock Outboard Yamato. at least then we can call it S.O.Y or Soy for short.
QUOTE]

Wow!........ZING!

Then we can add bet'n windows near judges stand.......Bam!-Business plan.
Heck even a few phone calls overseas and they might just build a few stadiums overhere for us!.....As fast as their buying GM stock and US dept,....they'l be look'n for entertainment here soon anyway..........

Import their boats with a motor in da box.........All the same boats/seal'd motor .....$3500-$4000 turn key rig..........All problems solved.

PS......Do they run side fins in Japan?

[jsilvestri]

i support it dean, in all regards. This coming from a father of a prospective stocker therefore concerned about the future, a rollup sidewinder bsr driver, and a 25/csr driver. As for the mandatory rollup bsr status, what's the point? Why turn away any possible new drivers/veteran drivers looking to flat turn/entry fees in general? In my opinion, now is not the time to be selfish, if we have to give a little for the better of the sport, then it's a good investment for our future. Greg

exactly!

[csh2z]

I saw a video of the Nationals finals of BSR. Great race between Ed & Richard Hearn and Brian Trolian. Three laps side by side. Ed had the inside lane, Brian on the outside. It looked to me that Brian out punched Ed. Really a great race. Oh, by the way, Brian was running the Sidewinder. I'm looking forward to when they begin to test props.

This year, I bought a 20 Sidewinder. I built a new boat and scrounged some props from a couple of different sources. To date, I have not tested at all. It's a question of resources for me, this year I got the motor, next year I'll get the props and do the testing. I will build a bigger boat to compete with the
20's because it is not fun following a bunch of Yamatos in full fields. In spring Millville, I ran competitively with AJ Jennings and Billy Allen, splitting heats with AJ and ending up 2nd. Unfortunately I had to return that prop to its owner and is no longer available to me. The point is there is a learning curve. Both the 15 & 20 Sidewinders are competitive right now. The motors perform as advertised. A little more tweeking on the carb adjustments and then it is all test props, test props, then test more props!
By the way, My motor is always for sale right off the back of my boat at the end of that weekends racing. $4600. I'll just buy another one!