aluminum rub rails illegal...........

[blueskyracer]

Heres how we do it in MONTANA Before and after

[Dave M]

Enough already

I don't give a rats arse who is on UIM, this ain't UIM. It is grass roots racing. If you want to be UIM, then sanction UIM events and have at it. Try to get them to adopt your gas burners, all the stock classes into a UIM race.... let me know how that goes. What gives ? Why would we let the UIM dictate our saftey rules ? Who is it that thinks we can't govern ourselves ? APBA ? Gee, that is a slap in the face, here I pay them yearly dues and they still slap me ? Gee, that sounds like fun.

At any rate, I am willing to bet there has not been one iota of testing done on rub rails of any material... anyone want to take me up on that bet ?

Now then, back to the issue, APBA members are confused at the rules and the process. It is casuing conflict at races, evidence posted above by Susan and racers. Nobody seems to know the answer. That is not right. All of this could be avoided if they simply let the membership vote on the rules instead of mandating them as saftey rules... COME ON LEADERSHIP, are you listening... are you even looking at your core group ? And I am not buying the B.S. they don't watch this website... if they don't they are not a very good leader. A leader will seek out the info to do the best job they can.

No wonder the membership is dwindling... leadership is not listening to its members. And if it is, they are not reacting to it becasue of a personal agenda. I am not pointing fingers at anyone, just in general. Much more of this goes on and this sport will be like rich mans sport where only the elite can do it.

There, that is my rant. For once, i agree with Darren. Hell froze over. I need a beer.

[bill boyes]

Bluesky, That is what I have been talking about. You built it into the Boat as it should be. Not hacked off and fill the hole with Mico Ballons. Gezz.
OK, Where is our SORC Leadership on this issue?

Dave I agree with you.

[ricochet112]

Because the UIM dimension of 25mm (close to 1") radius is safe, a 1/2" radius is a joke for lessoning any measureable impact differences.

It would be great to have a hull that would be legal in SO, Mod, Pro and UIM, no need to worry what class or sanctioning body you raced with, all boats meet the same safety standards.

Making all older boats meet this standard will kill many, many boats.

Looks like 25SSH at this years SO Nats won't happen, for me at least.

[bill boyes]

Wonder if any CSH's will run OSY and CMH and say the heck with CSH.

[hydroid]

What goes around, comes around (a race course)

Speculating, but I'll bet this is driven by 'perceived' reduction of insurance liability by an Actuarial underwriter sitting in an office looking to justify their job by calculating the minutia of being speared by a boat; APBA/SORC conform, otherwise threat of premiums go up. Ask yourself: If you're in the water, do you think it will make a difference whether you're speared(head or torso) by a 1/2" or 1" radius, by a boat going 50mph?...or by a shovelnose with a 1/4" leading edge radius... Doubt it. You want scientific research, let's do what Mythbusters would do, throw out a dozen pig carcasses into the water and spend an afternoon spearing them. There's your scientific research...and we'll have a pig roast that night.
Didn't this start with Aluminum rub rails,.... and someone said shovelnose. I think Darrell will see a sales resurgence of these:

[B Walker]

The leadership that you elected has said and been saying for several years they want to move toward the UIM standards for impact resistance.

They want to do this incrementally to cause the least amount of disturbance to the general racing membership.

If this is news to you......you have not been paying attention.

I am suprised that anyone is suprised by this.

Speculating, but I'll bet this is driven by 'perceived' reduction of insurance liability by an Actuarial underwriter sitting in an office looking to justify their job by calculating the minutia of being speared by a boat

Yes, that is speculation. Actual laboratory testing of a variety of common current boatbuilding techniques and materials were tested at great expense. These results were available at the UIM website for several years.

If you dont understand how hardening the tips with a metallic rubrail hardens the point. You dont understand basic physics.

here is a picture:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armor-p...shot_and_shell


Dissemination of rules

It is so easy to modify the electronic rulebook at the APBA website.

There is no reasonable excuse for the electronic rulebook at the APBA website to ever not be current.

I am still not clear on what the current rule actually is.....

Thats the discussion we should be having....

BW

[ram95]

Dwindling membership??......imagine that.

I would like to ask, what the heck is the urgency for implementing some of these rule changes? What grinds my gears in particular are these safety rules which are primarily due to a few persons personal opinions. Impact material was one of them. Rounded pickles to dimensions nobody can agree upon including J which has no rule on them. Trying to force UIM rules. Height rules. Kick in rules. I'm not anti-rule, but until the day comes when ALL boats are built on the exact same MOLD we're going to have boats that handle all different ways. And, of course we have the weight of the driver skewing the data. C'mon people!!:bond:

Implementation of a new rule ought to be a 2 year process. I'm not talking about fixing some ambiguous or confusing rule already in the book. I'm talking about NEW rules. Before implementing any new rule, at least the affected membership ought to be given the courtesy of commenting on the proposal. Then, before the rule is printed in the book, the final version needs to go out to the membership for one last hit. That way we could discuss the pros and cons at the nat meeting and it would still have another year to be looked at BEFORE being approved for implementation. Bonafide safety issues supported by documented data (which needs to be verified!!!) are a different cat.

And maybe... just maybe... we won't need a rule, just a recommendation. And for the folks who want to adopt the UIM rules..... hey you build YOUR boats to the UIM rules and leave the rest of us alone.

Alex
The Mad Russian 12A DSH

PS: And while we're at it.... what's wrong with the age for D hydro being 16, like it is for 750 Mod hydro & runabout, 250 mod, CSR and "D"SR .... why not huh???

[Mark 32]

+1 on the pig carcasses, sounds like we need a case of beer and an afternoon to do some "testing"

[Mike Beegle]

wow

Alot of wasted enegery on this subject... Blueskyracers example of how to build the radius into the end of the sponson tips is a great example good work...

I have built 2 hydros MJR and repaired my share of sponsons from hemp boats to giles... From a building standpoint it is easier NOTto bring the sponson tips to a point... A premade radius piece will take away from the stress you put on the inside sponsons which are your airtraps when your trying to bend the outside sponson piece around.. I use sitka and its stiff..

As far as Rules U.I.M. Is much farther ahead.. Safety needs to be a standardize principle for all categories And U.I.M strives for that .. They actually have a annual meeting and bring all motorsports covered under U.I.M. Not just boatracing to discuss safety as a whole..

I guess if you dont like it quit running the osy400 and Pro classes at your stock events.. If you really want to be confused about rules read thru the opc rules at the back of your rule book everything is "suggested or recommended"

Im suprised Brian Williams has not chimed in on this, As i last recall he has been speared 2 times Thru the thigh by a pointy sponson... and pushed real hard for the radius rule... Just keep in mind that pumpkin bobin in the lake may be you.. I will go for a radius tip in the helmet before a pointy one any day

Hey Dave Mason didnt your dad put a pickle through Mark Wheelers Cockpit side a few years ago at hillsdale? Seem to me that was on the cover of the IOA season picture cd.. If there was engineered data behind every rule it would be a richmans sport...

Atleast you guys dont have to use a block of foam on the sponson tips to make a 4" radius and breakaway pickles... Thats what I'm doing today...

Good work blueskyracer.... u should be selling those radius pieces...

Mike

[ram95]

Comments not wasted.

With all due respect to everyone who has posted here on HR... the comments made are not wasted. There's a good bit of chaff but lots of wheat too, and it's interesting separating it.

You can talk to some old boat builders and they will be quite adamant that there is nothing wrong with sharp pickles,.. because racing is inherently dangerous. That being said, I still asked one of them to build my boat with them blunted (prior to the rule) - my preference.

Personally, the turning fins on some boats scare the crap out of me... but fins are necessary. Sharp pickles (or bows!! check out DeSilva's) aren't. And, I can say that not all boat builders would agree that the pickles, as illustrated above, are easier to build. Their jigs are setup and patterns already cut.

Reinforced cockpit sides and impact material in jackets are examples of personal protective measures which the racer ought to be able to decide upon for themselves. It doesn't mean manufacturers can't offer it or advertise the benefits of it. Testing or developing a specification is usually expensive.... and not really needed where the benefit appears obvious, such as rounding the pickles.

I'm glad we have this forum for those of us lucky enough to have access. We have to remember the many who don't or who choose not to comment - their views count and are reflected in our dwindling membership.

For those who really feel a rule is needed, why don't you try writing it. It aint easy and it sure shouldn't be done in a hurry.

Thanks for reading and not interrupting

Alex

[BP125V]

SO rule

Because the UIM dimension of 25mm (close to 1") radius is safe, a 1/2" radius is a joke for lessoning any measureable impact differences.

It would be great to have a hull that would be legal in SO, Mod, Pro and UIM, no need to worry what class or sanctioning body you raced with, all boats meet the same safety standards.

Making all older boats meet this standard will kill many, many boats.

Looks like 25SSH at this years SO Nats won't happen, for me at least.

Ricochet112,

I was one of the ones arguing FOR the 1/2" radius vs the UIM standard. Why? Because the speed and mass of J and Stock Outboard boats is less than the laydown PRO hydros that they use in Europe. Also, we measured several brands of J / AX / ASH pickles in our area and if we went with the 1" radius there would be no pickle left, the boats would loose approx 5" to 6" of length. Do we really need to go to that extreme for a 40 mph boat? I don't think so.

If you think that the 1/2" radius is too small to make any difference, don't forget that this is a MINIMUM and you are free to make the radius as big as you want.

Just curious, why would you not be able to race 25 at Oroville this year?

Bill Pavlick

PS I included J in my argument as at that time the J committee stated that they would adopt whatever rule Stock enacted.

[Team B&H]

and the debate continues on....

-Bill

[mercguy]

hmmm.........

seems the topic I brought up in this discusssion concerned the aluminum rub rails NOT the sponson tips...............to each his own I guess.............

[ricochet112]

Ricochet112,

I was one of the ones arguing FOR the 1/2" radius vs the UIM standard. Why? Because the speed and mass of J and Stock Outboard boats is less than the laydown PRO hydros that they use in Europe. Also, we measured several brands of J / AX / ASH pickles in our area and if we went with the 1" radius there would be no pickle left, the boats would loose approx 5" to 6" of length. Do we really need to go to that extreme for a 40 mph boat? I don't think so.

If you think that the 1/2" radius is too small to make any difference, don't forget that this is a MINIMUM and you are free to make the radius as big as you want.

Just curious, why would you not be able to race 25 at Oroville this year?

Bill Pavlick

PS I included J in my argument as at that time the J committee stated that they would adopt whatever rule Stock enacted.

As I said before, when I had my CSH built it was made with UIM compliant pickle tips. I think it's a very good idea to have blunt pickles.

1/2" radius is probably sufficient for J, but the rules should be across the board, not convoluted for each class and category.

A new rule that requires a boat modification for at least a quarter to a third of the boats out there should have been published in propeller.

My problem is that there has to be a grandfathered clause to allow older boats to still run. And just hacking off the tips is NOT a good idea; it could cause structural integrity to be compromised.

Could we ADD material to the tip to be compliant?

I'm not cutting the tips off my 25SSH boat at this time for one race. Our other A hydro will sit on the trailer or may run mod, most likely it will sit on the trailer this year.

From what I read, the rule was rescinded and 2011 it wouldn't be applicable. Is it just for aluminum rub rails and not the 1/2" radius rule?


1. Rounded Boat Fronts. Proposal: Remove portions of the Safety Rule 3 that were not approved by the SORC.
Rule: 2010 Safety Rule #3 Section 22 (B) 2 (entire sentence in blue) and Section 23 (only wording in blue)
Action: Remove the portions of the rule listed.
Purpose: These two topics were not discussed or voted on at the 2009 National Meeting. The rules are poorly written and will possibly remove some runabouts from competing in our 2010 season. Removal of the nose to thicken to the 1/2" measurement may make some runabouts illegal due to being too short for the class intended.
* Rescind the rule prohibiting the aluminum rub rails on pickle forks or cockpit noses. (page 28,3.22 B, 2)
Motion to remove the last sentence of safety rule 3.23. Motion Carries
Motion to remove safety rule 3.22 B-2 Motion Carries
Motion to adopt the Mod and Pro rounded pickle fork rule Motion Fails


Many different rounded pickle fork options were discussed and the final decision was to keep the current Stock Outboard rule with just a few changes to the rules posted in the rule book. Most changes were done for clarification purposes.