SideWinder Comparison?

[Team 12R]

must have been exciting huh?

Times were certainly different, but it is the "mentality" that stock outboard racing was founded on in the 1950's. There were 3 generations of motors from Merc between 1950 and 1955 that each completely obsoleted the motors before them ... Stock grew like crazy

how wonderful it must have been to have a company like merc so involved in stock outboard racing. "times were certainly different". jeff's views may have been protocal in 1955 however this is 2010. i hope the point you are making is that jeff's idea is how it was then. i hope you don't actually think that mentality would work today.

[Trihedral_1]

You guys would be glad I'm Not running the show.
I'd say, the S.W. will be fully legal as they are in 2011, same weight, same height, etc. The old motors they are replacing will not be legal in those classes the following year.
Who cares about parity? Just legalize the motors and get rid of the old ones. DONE! That simple.
Like I said, you guys would be glad I'm not running the show.

Excellent idea, but I'll add to it so everyone can still race. How's this:

The new Sidewinder would be the only B-stock motor & the Y302 the only C-stock motor. (I know yer not talking C in this thread, but it's all mixed together for some racers).
So, we'd have one motor for B-stock & one motor for C-stock. So simple. That would make 2 pure classes with a newer motor and a brand new one & years of replacement parts and years of no parity rule changes and years of fun racing and if you miss swapping motors and props all the time, try runabout & hydro in the same day like everybody used to do.

It gets better. Now then, put all the 80's & 102's in 20ss and have the parity committee do the best they can to even things out. That would keep all the existing affordable motors in just one class, and nothing goes to waste. And, if you can't find faith that two different motors can live together in a class, well, that's what we're doing in all the classes right now.

Now the fun part: The 102 guys in C-stock could trade 302 20ss guys for their motors and everybody stays in the same class (read it twice and it will make sense).

Maybe a similar plan with A & AXS. Not sure about Hotrods & 25. I only see them at Nationals.

I gotta say that two motors in a major class is a pain in the drainplug. I spent endless hours & seasons swapping 80's with restricted 302's in 20ss & 102's & 302's in CSH and I'm not looking forward to going down that path again. For the cost of that, I could be running a third class. That's more entries.

And I also gotta say that when it comes to my boats, there is not parity in 20ss or CSH right now. Sure, a race is a race, and a fast boat can get caught up & a slower one win, but I'm talking about motor parity. Motor parity is not possible (especially with restrictors) given our variety of course sizes, elevations, etc..

On the data thing, I have huge amounts of comparison data on the Y80, Restricted 302, 302, & 102 if anybody's interested in the parity of what we're actually racing right now.


Jimi O (305-R)

[seanp3]

Excellent idea, but I'll add to it so everyone can still race. How's this:

The new Sidewinder would be the only B-stock motor & the Y302 the only C-stock motor. (I know yer not talking C in this thread, but it's all mixed together for some racers).
So, we'd have one motor for B-stock & one motor for C-stock. So simple. That would make 2 pure classes with a newer motor and a brand new one & years of replacement parts and years of no parity rule changes and years of fun racing and if you miss swapping motors and props all the time, try runabout & hydro in the same day like everybody used to do.

It gets better. Now then, put all the 80's & 102's in 20ss and have the parity committee do the best they can to even things out. That would keep all the existing affordable motors in just one class, and nothing goes to waste. And, if you can't find faith that two different motors can live together in a class, well, that's what we're doing in all the classes right now.

Now the fun part: The 102 guys in C-stock could trade 302 20ss guys for their motors and everybody stays in the same class (read it twice and it will make sense).

Maybe a similar plan with A & AXS. Not sure about Hotrods & 25. I only see them at Nationals.

I gotta say that two motors in a major class is a pain in the drainplug. I spent endless hours & seasons swapping 80's with restricted 302's in 20ss & 102's & 302's in CSH and I'm not looking forward to going down that path again. For the cost of that, I could be running a third class. That's more entries.

And I also gotta say that when it comes to my boats, there is not parity in 20ss or CSH right now. Sure, a race is a race, and a fast boat can get caught up & a slower one win, but I'm talking about motor parity. Motor parity is not possible (especially with restrictors) given our variety of course sizes, elevations, etc..

On the data thing, I have huge amounts of comparison data on the Y80, Restricted 302, 302, & 102 if anybody's interested in the parity of what we're actually racing right now.


Jimi O (305-R)

Not bad. I like it!!

[B Walker]

Now the fun part: The 102 guys in C-stock could trade 302 20ss guys for their motors and everybody stays in the same class (read it twice and it will make sense).

I really like the out-of-the-box thinking.......but.......

There are significant design differences between a 102 Hydro and a 302 Hydro. I imagine it is the same story for the different motors allowed in 20SSH. You cant ask someone to do that and ask them to take a step backward at the same time.

The more I think about this idea, the more I like it though.

BW

[ZUL8TR]

Parity

Excellent idea, but I'll add to it so everyone can still race. How's this:

The new Sidewinder would be the only B-stock motor & the Y302 the only C-stock motor. (I know yer not talking C in this thread, but it's all mixed together for some racers). .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ............................................

On the data thing, I have huge amounts of comparison data on the Y80, Restricted 302, 302, & 102 if anybody's interested in the parity of what we're actually racing right now.


Jimi O (305-R)

==========================================

I would like to see the data you have noted in the last sentence of your post.
You can PM via email me if you want to keep it out of this thread.

Thanks

[drbyrne55]

New Sidewinders

The link below is the contact page for Sidewinder. A phone call to Sidewinder may lead you to the information you would like to read. Blindly publishing data here may lead to confusion over the data. I have called them and they have been very forthright and helpful.

http://www.racingoutboards.com/Contacts.aspx

[Boatracer4fun]

Excellent idea, but I'll add to it so everyone can still race. How's this:

The new Sidewinder would be the only B-stock motor & the Y302 the only C-stock motor. (I know yer not talking C in this thread, but it's all mixed together for some racers).
So, we'd have one motor for B-stock & one motor for C-stock. So simple. That would make 2 pure classes with a newer motor and a brand new one & years of replacement parts and years of no parity rule changes and years of fun racing and if you miss swapping motors and props all the time, try runabout & hydro in the same day like everybody used to do.

It gets better. Now then, put all the 80's & 102's in 20ss and have the parity committee do the best they can to even things out. That would keep all the existing affordable motors in just one class, and nothing goes to waste. And, if you can't find faith that two different motors can live together in a class, well, that's what we're doing in all the classes right now.

Now the fun part: The 102 guys in C-stock could trade 302 20ss guys for their motors and everybody stays in the same class (read it twice and it will make sense).

Maybe a similar plan with A & AXS. Not sure about Hotrods & 25. I only see them at Nationals.

I gotta say that two motors in a major class is a pain in the drainplug. I spent endless hours & seasons swapping 80's with restricted 302's in 20ss & 102's & 302's in CSH and I'm not looking forward to going down that path again. For the cost of that, I could be running a third class. That's more entries.

And I also gotta say that when it comes to my boats, there is not parity in 20ss or CSH right now. Sure, a race is a race, and a fast boat can get caught up & a slower one win, but I'm talking about motor parity. Motor parity is not possible (especially with restrictors) given our variety of course sizes, elevations, etc..

On the data thing, I have huge amounts of comparison data on the Y80, Restricted 302, 302, & 102 if anybody's interested in the parity of what we're actually racing right now.


Jimi O (305-R)

I would be intrested in seeing the data if you can PM me it.

[sponsonhead]

Add Me to that

I would be intrested in seeing the data if you can PM me it.

Jimi,

I too would love to see all your testing data for your 302 CSH. As well as the numbers on your props you are running. And your bank account number, too!

R-19

[Trihedral_1]

OK, but if you have a regular outfit, don't read this.

20ss 80 vs. 302 I don't have a sidewinder, yet.

all of my conclusions are from racing, not testing. The raw data is speed, rpm, lap time, weather, course size, and the old racing tool of "that looks good", etc. We can compare two separate years at the same course with the same conditions, or the standard record courses. Conditions vary from place to place, but over the course of time I've been able to make some conclusions. A mile an hour can come and go as fast as the day gets warm. Most regards the 302.

More accurate data could be had by spending a week testing on various sized measured courses (there's my disclaimer).

Now the data in a nutshell: In '06 we ran both the 80 & 302. Actually, two different 80 & 302 powerheads (4 powerheads used total). We collected a lot of data at races. Top speed on our Y80 was 64 (say 62ish for a race). Top speed on the 302 was 66 (say 63-65 for a race). As far as lap times, the 80 was faster on the small courses (under a mile w/ small turns). The 302 excelled on the bigger courses. For a while, I would have both motors ready and decide which one to use based on course layout.
It's acceleration vs. top speed with these two. They're totally different motors with different gears, cc's, etc.. Oh well, we also tried the 102 when it was a legal option in 20ss. Thats a lot of work for one class.
We eventually committed to run and work with the 302, and the Y80s just sit. I'm sure we could squeeze a bit more out of the 80, but who knows.
Enter 2009. We're now consistently topping out at 66mph. At the last race we were going 67mph, and there's some others running similar lap times.
Geography note: We can get 66 in Michigan, but everything we run as we go South drops a good 1mph.
I must note that there are certainly a few superfast Y80's in the land too. So fast were the 80's at Lawrence last year that I might have to go test my 80 again on the new boat -(and for all I know they're out testing 302s). Maybe you could call that parity. Maybe, but we're talking about the fastest 20's in the land (have to ask one of those "V" boats how fast a souped up Y80 really goes).

I can't imagine a third motor in any class, and I want to buy a new motor, but if it goes into 20ss and doesn't go faster than I'm going now, why should I buy one? And, if it goes faster than what I have, it might as well be a C-stock motor. Do you see why one motor per class is the way to go?


As for C-stock. I committed to the 302 a few years ago. Two boats, two motors, countless tweaking and reworking, props, and I still can't reach the performance of my 102s. It will be news to Guedo we'll be running a 102 next year in CSH, which, by the way, he's gonna kill me for posting this. Oh well, I gave the 302 my best try. Speeds in CSH. We top out at 68 in ideal conditions but have excellent turn speed, and race between 63&66 depending on course size.

Many props and checking account #'s were used in these tests.

Well, there it is.


Jimi O. (305-R)

[Team B&H]

Excellent idea, but I'll add to it so everyone can still race. How's this:

The new Sidewinder would be the only B-stock motor & the Y302 the only C-stock motor. (I know yer not talking C in this thread, but it's all mixed together for some racers).
So, we'd have one motor for B-stock & one motor for C-stock. So simple. That would make 2 pure classes with a newer motor and a brand new one & years of replacement parts and years of no parity rule changes and years of fun racing and if you miss swapping motors and props all the time, try runabout & hydro in the same day like everybody used to do.

It gets better. Now then, put all the 80's & 102's in 20ss and have the parity committee do the best they can to even things out. That would keep all the existing affordable motors in just one class, and nothing goes to waste. And, if you can't find faith that two different motors can live together in a class, well, that's what we're doing in all the classes right now.

Now the fun part: The 102 guys in C-stock could trade 302 20ss guys for their motors and everybody stays in the same class (read it twice and it will make sense).

Maybe a similar plan with A & AXS. Not sure about Hotrods & 25. I only see them at Nationals.

I gotta say that two motors in a major class is a pain in the drainplug. I spent endless hours & seasons swapping 80's with restricted 302's in 20ss & 102's & 302's in CSH and I'm not looking forward to going down that path again. For the cost of that, I could be running a third class. That's more entries.

And I also gotta say that when it comes to my boats, there is not parity in 20ss or CSH right now. Sure, a race is a race, and a fast boat can get caught up & a slower one win, but I'm talking about motor parity. Motor parity is not possible (especially with restrictors) given our variety of course sizes, elevations, etc..

On the data thing, I have huge amounts of comparison data on the Y80, Restricted 302, 302, & 102 if anybody's interested in the parity of what we're actually racing right now.


Jimi O (305-R)

I wont lie, i haven't been around the sport as long as you... this sounds okay to me. This sounds probable, but then again we are still missing this "test data" that you speak of. Everything sounds all well and good in thought, but you are missing the difficult task of providing proof.... something that has been missing in this sport for years.

The sidewinder came out what year??? I haven't a seen a single piece of data what-so-ever. (I don't care what class it is)

You say it's a pain for a major class to have two motors??? That sounds a little unrealistic. Wouldn't both of the motors make it major class? (more motors = more boats = more racers). Easy equation for me right there.

Trading?? Do you think someone would trade their best motor? That is insane within itself. I don't see how you could work an argument coming from that angle.

Just like you said in your post, "I spent endless hours & seasons swapping 80's with restricted 302's in 20ss & 102's & 302's in CSH and I'm not looking forward to going down that path again." That IS racing sir. You need to test in order to win. If you think differently then you are on some other level.

how about you make your "data" relevant and show it to the world...

-Bill

[drbyrne55]

Billy,
Did you have a bad day?

[Team B&H]

Billy,
Did you have a bad day?

nope, just testing

[Trihedral_1]

how about you make your "data" relevant and show it to the world...

-Bill[/QUOTE]

I posted all my Yamato stuff. It just says I found that the 102 is better than a 302 in c-stock, and in 20ss, the 80 is faster on a small course and the 302 is faster on a big course.

the relevancy in this thread is the 20ss stuff, as the new sidewinder is being proposed for the class.

Jimi O (305-R)

[mercguy]

OK, but if you have a regular outfit, don't read this.

20ss 80 vs. 302 I don't have a sidewinder, yet.

all of my conclusions are from racing, not testing. The raw data is speed, rpm, lap time, weather, course size, and the old racing tool of "that looks good", etc. We can compare two separate years at the same course with the same conditions, or the standard record courses. Conditions vary from place to place, but over the course of time I've been able to make some conclusions. A mile an hour can come and go as fast as the day gets warm. Most regards the 302.

More accurate data could be had by spending a week testing on various sized measured courses (there's my disclaimer).

Now the data in a nutshell: In '06 we ran both the 80 & 302. Actually, two different 80 & 302 powerheads (4 powerheads used total). We collected a lot of data at races. Top speed on our Y80 was 64 (say 62ish for a race). Top speed on the 302 was 66 (say 63-65 for a race). As far as lap times, the 80 was faster on the small courses (under a mile w/ small turns). The 302 excelled on the bigger courses. For a while, I would have both motors ready and decide which one to use based on course layout.
It's acceleration vs. top speed with these two. They're totally different motors with different gears, cc's, etc.. Oh well, we also tried the 102 when it was a legal option in 20ss. Thats a lot of work for one class.
We eventually committed to run and work with the 302, and the Y80s just sit. I'm sure we could squeeze a bit more out of the 80, but who knows.
Enter 2009. We're now consistently topping out at 66mph. At the last race we were going 67mph, and there's some others running similar lap times.
Geography note: We can get 66 in Michigan, but everything we run as we go South drops a good 1mph.
I must note that there are certainly a few superfast Y80's in the land too. So fast were the 80's at Lawrence last year that I might have to go test my 80 again on the new boat -(and for all I know they're out testing 302s). Maybe you could call that parity. Maybe, but we're talking about the fastest 20's in the land (have to ask one of those "V" boats how fast a souped up Y80 really goes).

I can't imagine a third motor in any class, and I want to buy a new motor, but if it goes into 20ss and doesn't go faster than I'm going now, why should I buy one? And, if it goes faster than what I have, it might as well be a C-stock motor. Do you see why one motor per class is the way to go?


As for C-stock. I committed to the 302 a few years ago. Two boats, two motors, countless tweaking and reworking, props, and I still can't reach the performance of my 102s. It will be news to Guedo we'll be running a 102 next year in CSH, which, by the way, he's gonna kill me for posting this. Oh well, I gave the 302 my best try. Speeds in CSH. We top out at 68 in ideal conditions but have excellent turn speed, and race between 63&66 depending on course size.

Many props and checking account #'s were used in these tests.

Well, there it is.


Jimi O. (305-R)

I'll "gladly" take those 302's (and props) off your hands Jimi!!

PS: I won't tell Guido where they went either................

[pav225]

???

Any Comparison Data Yet???

- Mike

p.s. Jimi, thanks for the good post!