Stock Chairman's Long Term Plan

[mercguy]

Mike: My philosophy (or goal) is simple: Establish a frame work of 4 hydro and 4 runabout classes to allow new engines to come into the category and be competitive with the old.

I don't think you can obsolete (or even phase out) the old stuff unless you have a firm committment from a manufacturer to produce engines for a particular class and that manufacturer has the where-with-all to produce lots of engines quickly. That was true when the KG4 was obsoleted (ie: OMC). But, it hasn't been true in our category since. Ed.



Add: That would be a Stock-only plan. True good planning, in my opinion, would take into account Stock, Mod, J and Pro. That's what my original proposal included. Ed.

so.......what are you "planned" classes and the motors to be used in these classes??????

[YankeeRacing]

Connie,

I apologize if I was misunderstood. I didn't mean my comparison to imply that there is anything wrong with the way AOF organizes its classes, or that the organization has in any way not succeeded at its goals. I believe that the different organizations serve just as great a purpose as the different categories in APBA. I think it would be a shame for us to all use the same model, because one model will not fit everyones needs. AOF and NBRA are just the places to attempt some of the ideas that Ed has brought up in this thread, and that is great because it gives everyone the opportunity to participate in the kind of racing they enjoy. Stock Outboard though, is the only category in any of these organizations, that has a predominantly one motor-one class structure. My apples against your apples, lets find out who's are bigger. That is the kind of racing that I, along with many others, enjoy most. If Stock Outboard looses this identity, then there won't be a place for that kind of racing anymore. We will all be racing apples against oranges, and while that is good for some people, there are a lot of people out there who would be dissatisfied with that result. It would be a shame for the boat racing world to loose this kind of heads up racing.

Ryan,
No apologies needed. We are discussing an important issue and we all have our ideas that we should be able to bring forth. I admire your stamina and convictions. In my day you would have been "right on." We needed more thinkers like you in 'my day." Unfortunately, many thought like me...that boat racing was the greatest thing since beer, and that it would survive with status quo. Blame us old people for the problems we have now. I think that is why Ron Hill and I can look at things differently. We lived through the hey day, and don't expect it back with the status quo. We think that you youngsters should go a different direction and don't repeat our mistakes.
In my lifetime we went from running pro to stock because racing equipment was easy to get in the stock division. Heck, you bought an engine for fishing, used it up, then raced in in stock. When it wore out you'd make a mod out of it. That was pretty standard procedure. If it got really used up, you'd then plan to make even more mods to it and run it in pro.
Life isn't like that anymore. I so terribly worry about the numbers of racers out there. I also know we need to start at the bottom and work up. Your plan looks like you are trying to start from the top and work down. We need all of the engines we can get on the water, BUILD, and then separate.
But I hope I am wrong and you are right. Your enthusiasm is worth the try and I will be watching. My generation did enough to screw up the sport I love so much, that I am content in cheering on youngsters with your energy to keep boat racing alive.
Good luck
Connie

[Sheila Schaub]

[QUOTE=Ron Hill;70685]Sheila Schaub...did that guy that owned the body shop in Kankakee, Illinois ever finish that Corvette????

Please say HELLO to your mom and dad for me....

Ron: I will definately say hello to my folks for you, I'm sure they would love to hear from you. As for the Corvette, I'm not sure that I know whom you are referring to. My soon to be ex- brother-in-law (thank God) owns a body shop in Rochelle, but I don't know of a corvette that he was working on. Sorry.

Take care Ron.

She

[Blackhawkguy]

Remember how you got here, not all the fodder

Remember the reasons for needing to re-group

1. 1978 S.O. membrship was around 1300, many clubs could have a race with just their club members and break even, I am not sure of the sanction and insurance cost at that time but the ratio of entry fee's per boat needed was very low

2. 1983 or so, stock outboard membership droped to around 1,000, insurence cost started to rise, your cost per entry started to rise also. Still had all the original engines, the only available new engines where 15, 20 hot rods and 80 Yamatos, 20-h's where not competative anymore

3. 1990 membership is down to 800 or so, the cost to sanction a weekend event is around 3,500. You now need aprox 100 entries per day at 25 dollars to break even, any less entries and you loose money or charge more per entry (ask the west coast guys what they where paying per class to race)

Ed is on the right track, the formula is simple

To put on a race the first thing you need is a sanction, if it cost you 3500 dollars to get one then the next thing you need are alot of boats or someone to write a check to cover the cost of the santion.

You need members or sponsors, neither of wich is attracted to S.O. at the moment

Make it simpler to decide on what to run, make the day shorter by getting the classes down to a reasonalbe amount, put on better shows and sponsors will be attracted. I am not sure you are ever going to get the numbers up again, to many other things for people to do in their spare time. One thing for sure, in it's current state, you are doomed.

Kerry

[14-H]

so.......what are you "planned" classes and the motors to be used in these classes??????

Darren: Please see post #1 on this thread. Ed.

[14-H]

Cost of sanction/insurance

Kerry: thanks for the compliment. One correction though. Since the late 80's, the cost of sanction and insurance in APBA has not changed much. I'm going off the top of my head and not looking at the numbers (although Dean Sutherland keeps track of this stuff), but I'd say it has probably only varied 10% or so since that time.

One thing that has changed drastically (in addition to membership), though, is some of the other "hard costs" of putting on the race. Most especially is the cost of an ambulance. But this also includes the cost of rescue personel and operating all of the more expensive safety equipment. These costs can run to around 3-4 thousand dollars per weekend depending on your location. On the left coast, the cost is even greater.

A lot of these additional costs have come from our sensitivity to safety. In the 80's, we rarely had divers/EMTs on the water and our "rescue boats" were usually aluminum fishing boats. Now, this scenario is rare. We usually have certified EMTs on the water and high tech safety/rescue boats that cost tens of thousands of dollars to buy and maintain. This is true even though our rules do not require this higher level of expense.

So we have the increased costs, with the pressure of fewer participants. That is a recipe for problems.

Let me add this, however: I will not cut out EMTs and rescue personel on the water at my race, Dayton, even if the numbers are down. If we can't stay afloat with the extra help, we'll just close up shop, so to speak. Ed.

Add: You are right about the solution, however. You have to have an attraction of a lot of participants or you must have sponsors in order to be able to keep your race site viable. How to do that is the $60,000.00 question. EWH.

[mercguy]

Darren: Please see post #1 on this thread. Ed.

ya mean that same dillusional idea is what you actually perceive? Why not just A/B/C/D like stated before........

PS: your idea of eliminating DSH ain't never gonna happen!

[14-H]

ya mean that same dillusional idea is what you actually perceive? Why not just A/B/C/D like stated before........

PS: your idea of eliminating DSH ain't never gonna happen!

Darren: The whole thing "ain't never gonna happen". Stop bringing it up. Ed.

[mercguy]

Nope!

Darren: The whole thing "ain't never gonna happen". Stop bringing it up. Ed.

I ain't gona stop till you get the "bannashment of DSH" out of your thick skull!! I get a "kick" out of your idea of eliminating a NEW AVAILABLE DSH motor and sending it over to the Mod Division.

[Ron Hill]

Figuring Things Out.....AKA: Getting Organized

Sheila Schaub: Showing my age.... I know your mom and dad...and Brad....but how many more of you are there? I think, I thought I was talking to your sister....I never knew she married the Body Shop owner, but I guess that is "POW"...Odds are he never finished the Corvette, anyway...

If I over stay my welcome at the APBA National Meeting's Hostility Room, it will be because I'm trying to get some of my MONEY BACK!!!! Free beers is always good...As I explain to my night school students my three favorite beers are:

1. FREE
2. Large
3. Cold

In 1956 the APBA National Convention was written up in the LASA Paper as the Annual Benign....

YankeeRacing: I know I'm OLD and I was part of the problem. I'd like to think the younger generation is a BIGGER problem than us "SENIORS". When made rule changes, we made them with no knowledge from the past. When I came up with the 15 race average concept, I did it SO I COULD WIN US-1. It never really entered my mind that but making it impossible for some one to BEAT RON HILL that they might quit racing. I won 56 straight D Runabout races...except 62 and 63 Nationals...(I had five second in a row)...

HIG POINTS should be the person who scores the most points. I looked at APBA's end of year "High Points" and most who had th most points didn't really end up winning...How would NASCAR be if they averaged your oints....Friggin....Kyle Petty would be 3rd...I love Richard Petty and the who Petty Group, but Kyle needs to park it...

I promoted new classes because it was a place to get NEW WINNERS.....I FATHERED 20SSR, 20SSH, WITH TOM IGE'S MOTORS...I father Sport C, C-NOD (C PRODUCTION), Mod C, UJ, Mod 100, Mod VP, Novice (OSY 400, today), Mini GT, Super Sport..... I wrote BIG STORIES for our club paper from 1960 to 1978. I was Region Chairman of APBA for 5 years. I was a past Commodore of SCOA. I put on th first three Winternationals. My last Winternationals paid $35,000 in hundred dollar bills and gave away $10,000 in land.

I printed and gave out 10,000 pamplets promoting boat racing at the LA Boat Show.... I left SCOA in 1978 with $20,000 in T-Bills and $10,000 in the bank.....

People join into the sport expecting the SPORT to do something for them....I was born in the Sport and never ASKED anything from the SPORT. I've never seen a Race Boat I don't like....

When I was in College I had a theory I called the Theory of the ladder: I sat on my own ladder and I was the KING...If you wanted on my ladder, it was OK, but I wanted you to know that I was KING... Many YOUNG people have become boat racing thinking they are sitting on a ladder....

Mercguy and I didn't know each other, a few years back..I think, he about had a STROKE watching me drive the "KICKER" boat at the Winter Nationals. I pulled in more boats than the patrol boats....Darren, was "BLOWN AWAY" that RON HILL would drive a "KICKER" boat and work all weekend....Darren never said anything, but I could tell he changed his "IMAGE" of Ron Hill after seeing me "FARTING AROUND" having fun driving the "KICKER" boat....

Ted May, Ernie Dawe, Jimbo McConnell, Glen Chambers, Doug and Mike Wetmore, Bill Boyes, Lane Curry, Danny Schwarzenbach....Russ Hill Jr. and Senior...We went to races to have FUN. EGOs..Hell, I didn't know the word... we were boat racers. We put out the bouys. We worked in the patrol boats. We sold ads for the club papers. We gave people rides in our boats...WE PAID OUR OWN WAY and were proud of it. We knew we weren't Slo Motion or Miss Thriftway...we were OUTBOARDERS and PROUD OF IT...


Seems to me Water Ski Racing has the right idea...They have 50 classes, but they run one race....(Catalina Ski Race has 120 entires, or more, every year)....They also have Series...

14-H:

Post ONE:


1. Toss out FAR and FAH -2
2. Restrict OMC to run with new Hot Rod (New name escapes me) -0 + 0
3. Get Rid of AXSH and ASXR -2 (If I was still teaching, my students would tell me we are at plus 4.....I won't go there)...
4. Hot Rod BR and BH with Y-80 at 1", choke down OLD HOT ROD (until it dies..I added that)...-0 +0
5. Drop AMH and AMR (But allow them to run in B Mod, C Stock, and C Mod) -2
6. Drop BMR, 20SSh, 25SSR -3
7. 44XS in CMH -0 +0
8. Keep DMH and FEH -0 +0
9. Get Rid of K-Pro -1
10. Get Rid of OSY-400 -1
11. Put Tohatsu in DMR and DMH and FE -0 +0
12. There ain't no 12..

I re-read 14-H's post number one....

Now, I didn't count his +'s and -'s but I will...

Seems this would cut 11 classes...

The only thing I'd add would be this: At DePue OSY 400 should have a replacement....I don't care what, but this class needs a NATIAONAL TITLE for DePue. Same ith K-Pro: DePue needs a title for K Prop...(I don't care what name, but AND NAME WITH A TITLE IS NEDEED.)

[14-H]

I ain't gona stop till you get the "bannashment of DSH" out of your thick skull!! I get a "kick" out of your idea of eliminating a NEW AVAILABLE DSH motor and sending it over to the Mod Division.

Darren: Do you drink on occasion while you are reading my posts? Because I really think, sometimes, you are missing what I'm saying. The only other explanation is that Racer X has hijacked your username (or credit card). Ed.

[mercguy]

OK then........

Darren: Do you drink on occasion while you are reading my posts? Because I really think, sometimes, you are missing what I'm saying. The only other explanation is that Racer X has hijacked your username (or credit card). Ed.

enlighten me in a short, but brief statement...........

PS: I typed out a long response to you, but deleted it, because it would not make a difference anyways...................I guess the ball is in your (and the rest of the SO commission) to make the right decisions on the future of SO racing..........please put all personal agendas aside........and think what is best for the sport NOW, not 20yrs down the road.........

PSS: I STILL (and so do many others) think your appointment of Wheeler (again I say I have nothing bad to say about Mark) to the DSH paridy committee is ludicrous.............the AOF and NBRA look better each day....

[MGallagher]

and think what is best for the sport NOW, not 20yrs down the road.........

On the contrary, I think we need to concern are selves more with the future of SO, than the present. Doing what is good for the sport NOW will only prolong the death of it. Current boat racers need to make immediate and aggressive sacrifices in order to remedy this successfully. Now, I am not sure what and how the order of things should go(cutting classes and motors), but maybe that is what the commissioners should concentrating on while at the national meeting.

STOCK
J-Keep as is
AX-cut
A-OMC out in 1-2 years with commitment of 50-100 new 15ci motors from Racing Outboards LLC
B-Old Hot Rod out 1-2 years with commitment of 50-100 new 20ci motors from Racing Outboards LLC
20ssh-cut
25SSR & 25SSH-cut
C-102 out in 1-2 years ;302 only
D- Merc out 1-2 years :Tahatsu only(with adjustments for easier inspection)

MOD
FA- any 15ci engine
BM- any 20ci engine
25M- cut
CM- anything between 20ci to 30ci
DM- anything between 30ci to 44ci
FE- anything between 40ci to 49ci

Just a thought!

Response to this would be appreciated!

Matt Gallagher
58J

[mercguy]

future..............how many years???

On the contrary, I think we need to concern are selves more with the future of SO, than the present. Doing what is good for the sport NOW will only prolong the death of it. Current boat racers need to make immediate and aggressive sacrifices in order to remedy this successfully. Now, I am not sure what and how the order of things should go(cutting classes and motors), but maybe that is what the commissioners should concentrating on while at the national meeting.

STOCK
J-Keep as is
AX-cut
A-OMC out in 1-2 years with commitment of 50-100 new 15ci motors from Racing Outboards LLC
B-Old Hot Rod out 1-2 years with commitment of 50-100 new 20ci motors from Racing Outboards LLC
20ssh-cut
25SSR & 25SSH-cut
C-102 out in 1-2 years ;302 only
D- Merc out 1-2 years :Tahatsu only(with adjustments for easier inspection)

MOD
FA- any 15ci engine
BM- any 20ci engine
25M- cut
CM- anything between 20ci to 30ci
DM- anything between 30ci to 44ci
FE- anything between 40ci to 49ci

Just a thought!

Response to this would be appreciated!

Matt Gallagher
58J

Matt, while I understand the need for a goal for the future, that is something NO ONE can predict!!! Just because a motor is available now, does not mean it will be available, in let's say, 5yrs. With the more stingent guidlines by the EPA, there may not be importing (and including the 2 strokes being made in the US) of any more "uncompliant 2 strokes" (including the 302 Yamato) in the very near future. My point is, that trying to "boot out" or eliminate current motors being raced could create detrimental affects sooner than you think. You must make a plan for what is AVAILABLE now or the next couple years, but not any furthur. Before any of these ideas are presented and followed through with, I would "suggest" a serious talk with some type of government official and member of the EPA..........

as to the subject of the Sidewinders, there also needs to be a plan broughtforth by the Sidewinder Co. ( I am sure Ron will be doing so at the Nat. Meeting) and their abilities to being able to produce the amount of motors you are suggesting and also think about if they can survive by selling only a fraction of those motors, as history has shown with other motors. Case in point with Montoya having almost 100 Yamato 302's in stock and not getting a big demand of orders for new motors. You can't force someone to buy a new motor.

[Ron Hill]

Keep AXS, Drop J

From what I've seen, dropping J would make more sense, than droping AXS. AXS could drop their age requirement and kep AXS's speed and age requriements...

Changes races the races to three heats, two ten Lap qualifiers, and a 25 LAP MAIN...

ADD: So, he never finished the Corvette!!!! (he seemed so sincere)..