Should CSH be a Legal Pro Class?

[slowisfast2112]

With that kind of logic there is no wonder that all forms of boat racing need help. Bruce Summers is an old out of touch boat racer, his opinion is Not shared by the rest of the pro cat.

Nic Thompson

A)Don't you think Bruce being an "old out of touch boat racer" is a bit far fetched considering he had you guys covered for the most part this year?

B) Not once did he say that his opinion was that of the PRO category, but I for one do share his opinion, and am not the only other one.

Jay Anderson

[mercguy]

Osy......

So let's hear it on this one: Should CSH be a legal Pro Class (as if there is anything the SORC could do about it)? I'm referring, of course, to OSY-400 which is not really OSY-400 since its rules are identical to CSH with the exception of weight. Additionally, Pro's OSY-400 rules are vastly different from UIM's rules for the class UIM calls OSY-400.

What is the point of having CSH in the Pro Category? Should CSH also be a legal OPC, Inboard, or Offshore Class? If not, why not make ASH a legal class in these other categories? Should we make Factory 1 and 2 or the 2.5 and 5 liter Hydro classes legal SO classes? It would increase our promotional budget.

How many drivers run OSY-400 and do Not run CSH or 20SSH?

If we really want to run CSH twice every weekend, why don't we just do that rather than running a Pro class that is not really a Pro class at all? Local clubs could run a special event, keep club points for that class and even lower or remove the weights for the local event.

I need help in understanding here. Ed.

in my opinion, OSY400 is a joke and down right stupid!!! How in the hell, can a kid 14ys old be allowed to drive "basically" and unrestricted (no weight or height or flippin' overlap rule!) CSH rig, right after he/she moved up from an OMC "A motor" class? It is down right dangerous for one and also ridiculous! As Ed stated, APBA OSY400 is no where near the UIM OSY class, so what is the point? I believe no "kid" should be allowed to run OSY, until they have either raced in 20SSH or CSH (the Yamato classes) for a couple years or so and are able to handle and drive the rigs responsibly, before they can go to OSY. The reason I do not like to race OSY, is mainly becasue there are alot of new drivers in the class that get in over their head and make potentially dangerous mistakes on the race course and can get someone seriously hurt, along with "hacking" other drivers off. Either raise the age minimum or move the class to mod or something...........go ahead flame me, but my opinion will not change.

[csh2z]

Back to the original topic. --- All of our classes are legal not only in Stock, but in Mod & Pro as well. I's up to the APBA BoD to make sure there is no duplication of classes among the categories. 45SST- SST45?
John 2-Z

[David Weaver]

How about, rather, we just make the UIM compliant ones, Stock Outboard Classes? Would that be okay?

Well, if we take this suggestion then there is no point for thiis discussion. OSY 400 APBA is not UIM compliant, however, there is nothing stopping an individual driver from running a UIM compliant boat in OSY 400 APBA.

I guess 125 hydro is UIM compliant, but I am not sure how it fits in with the long term strategy of SO. Of course, I do not compete in SO, therefore I do not consider myself entitled to much say in another category's business.

I invite Ed to attend the PRO Commission meeting and discuss the treatment of OSY 400 drivers by the PRO Commission / Category. If these valued drivers are in way treated differently than drivers in other classes then I would like to know about it. I have seen no evidence of this during the 2006 racing season.

And to cut the responses short, if any of my best friends had set a record in 125cc, 500 cc, C Service or K PRO and an approved inspector had not been present then I would have voted to "not approve" the record.

With regards to the comments made by Mr. Summers, I disagree. With regards to the comments made about Mr. Summers personally, I strongly disagree.

[sam]

Back to the original topic. --- All of our classes are legal not only in Stock, but in Mod & Pro as well. I's up to the APBA BoD to make sure there is no duplication of classes among the categories. 45SST- SST45?
John 2-Z

At each individual race, its up to the race committee to dupilcate classes or not, not BoD

[ricochet112]

in my opinion, OSY400 is a joke and down right stupid!!! How in the hell, can a kid 14ys old be allowed to drive "basically" and unrestricted (no weight or height or flippin' overlap rule!) CSH rig, right after he/she moved up from an OMC "A motor" class? It is down right dangerous for one and also ridiculous! As Ed stated, APBA OSY400 is no where near the UIM OSY class, so what is the point? I believe no "kid" should be allowed to run OSY, until they have either raced in 20SSH or CSH (the Yamato classes) for a couple years or so and are able to handle and drive the rigs responsibly, before they can go to OSY. The reason I do not like to race OSY, is mainly becasue there are alot of new drivers in the class that get in over their head and make potentially dangerous mistakes on the race course and can get someone seriously hurt, along with "hacking" other drivers off. Either raise the age minimum or move the class to mod or something...........go ahead flame me, but my opinion will not change.

That is exactly how I lost my boat, a 14 year old kid fresh out of K-Pro causing a wreck by making a mistake on the course!

I run OSY cause it sucks having to put 45lbs of lead in, and a C sized boat doesn't (always) work well in 20ssH. Unfortunatly the 25ssH class died out on the West coast and we've never had a B class since I've been racing.

OSY should have the same minimum age as CSH and a minimum weight of 400lbs OR comply exactly with UIM rules.

Here's my rule proposal for the Pro category;

All classes that run gas and oil will adopt the Stock overlap rule.

K-Pro will have the same rules and requirements as JR and JH (or make it the same as the AXS classes)

OSY400 will comply fully with the UIM rules and requirements.

Mike Bartlett

[alky6]

...(no weight or height or flippin' overlap rule!)...

He is where I have a problem. No one (non-PRO racers) seems to understand the PRO overlap rule. It is cockpit to cockpit. If you're not "side by side" with someone (i.e. you can look directly over and stare the guy in the face) you do not have an overlap. It is the RESPONSIBILITY of the person trying to pass to make sure he/she has a safe lane.

For example: if you are going into the first turn and your nose is at the transom of the lead boat, and you notice that the lead boat is heading for the pin, what do you do? Let off the throttle, and not just before you're at the entrance buoy. You don't go "barrelling" through the corner and get upset at the guy in front for "cutting you off." It is a simple rule and one that is easy to follow. The throttle is there for a reason, slow down and put yourself in a better position next time.

The other component of the overlap is when you have "overtaken" or just passed another boat, then it is the responsibility of the overtaking (the one that just passed) boat to make sure he/she leaves a safe lane through the corner. In this case the overtaking boat, if he/she sawed off the boat being passed, should be thrown out for violation of the rule.

Not picking on you Daren, but it appears that those who do not run PRO on a consistent basis do not understand the PRO overlap rule. I hope that helps.

As to OSY - I don't run it, so there is no need for me to comment, other than to let those who do run it and the PRO Commision determine its fate.

-Paul Fuchslin

[mercguy]

He is where I have a problem. No one (non-PRO racers) seems to understand the PRO overlap rule. It is cockpit to cockpit. If you're not "side by side" with someone (i.e. you can look directly over and stare the guy in the face) you do not have an overlap. It is the RESPONSIBILITY of the person trying to pass to make sure he/she has a safe lane.

For example: if you are going into the first turn and your nose is at the transom of the lead boat, and you notice that the lead boat is heading for the pin, what do you do? Let off the throttle, and not just before you're at the entrance buoy. You don't go "barrelling" through the corner and get upset at the guy in front for "cutting you off." It is a simple rule and one that is easy to follow. The throttle is there for a reason, slow down and put yourself in a better position next time.

The other component of the overlap is when you have "overtaken" or just passed another boat, then it is the responsibility of the overtaking (the one that just passed) boat to make sure he/she leaves a safe lane through the corner. In this case the overtaking boat, if he/she sawed off the boat being passed, should be thrown out for violation of the rule.

Not picking on you Daren, but it appears that those who do not run PRO on a consistent basis do not understand the PRO overlap rule. I hope that helps.

As to OSY - I don't run it, so there is no need for me to comment, other than to let those who do run it and the PRO Commision determine its fate.

-Paul Fuchslin

Paul, I understand what you have stated, but this is not being inforced at all. Especially the part of leaving the overtaken boat a safe lane, unless the overtaking driver thinks the turn buoy is a safe lane??? I believe this always happens on the run to the first turn and in the turns in particular. I do rave OSY on occassion (basically for testing only), and would run it more often, but I get sick and tired of being chopped off in the first turn. I asked the Pro Chairman about this rule and was told that at speeds of which PRO's run, they do not have time (or maybe it was not safe for them) to turn their heads and look for a boat coming up along side them, thus the different explanation for the overlap rule. WELL, that blew my mind!

[David Weaver]

Great Explantation Paul

Paul's explanation should be read aloud or posted at each PRO racing event.

Not only do the drivers need to understand the rules, but so do the turn judges. It is possible at local races that the turn judges are not aware of the rules or perhaps are not PRO drivers.

I appreciate the comments on age in OSY 400. Like many parents in K PRO, a responsible adult may elect to place a restrictor in an engine until such time as the son/daughter capably demonstrates the ability to drive the boat in a responsible manner. Of course, I see many adults struggle to do this themselves some weekends . I guess it also in***bent upon race officials to have a discussion with any driver of any age who does not demonstrate control or safe conduct on the race course.

Thanks for the offer to modify PRO rules to match SO rules. After careful consideration, this PRO Commissioner will respectfully decline that generous offer.

DWW
F-77

[42R Dad]

The inside boats don't have a prayer going into the first turn. The Pro overlap does not work. I have watched as a referee and turn judge. The lead boat does not have to leave a safe lane. The lead boat has no rules other then baring away. He can drive in front of the rear boat intentionally.
There is nothing stopping an outside boat from jumping the gun at the start and cutting off a full field, I have seen it done to prevent someone from getting a record in OSY.

Only if overtaking another boat does the overtaking boat have to leave a safelane or room to clear a course marker.

There needs to be some clairifications made to this rule so that everyone understands it. I have been trying for 14 years to have something done after J. Michael was intentally cutoff when he went fro J Hydro to OSY.

The Pro commision informed me this was a safe overlap rule and that the OPC's use this rule as well. The difference is OPC's are straped in and enclosed. Not safe for open cock pit racing.

I hope that Steve,Paul and Dave can look at this again.
Like I said, the lane 12 boat has the right of way if in the lead going into the first turn, so everyone on the inside just back off and you wont get hurt.

This rule should be governed in the General Racing rules and be consistant so everyone understands.

I hope the APBA BOD steps in and reviews all overlap rules.

This is why I never raced Pro in my 28 years of racing, I saw a 500ccH get cut off at Lawrence Lake in 1980 while doing over 100mph sending him to the hospital.

I don't race anymore after being run over twice.
Hate to see anyone else go through what I did.

Jeff Kelly

[mercguy]

exactly!

The inside boats don't have a prayer going into the first turn. The Pro overlap does not work. I have watched as a referee and turn judge. The lead boat does not have to leave a safe lane. The lead boat has no rules other then baring away. He can drive in front of the rear boat intentionally.
There is nothing stopping an outside boat from jumping the gun at the start and cutting off a full field, I have seen it done to prevent someone from getting a record in OSY.

Only if overtaking another boat does the overtaking boat have to leave a safelane or room to clear a course marker.

There needs to be some clairifications made to this rule so that everyone understands it. I have been trying for 14 years to have something done after J. Michael was intentally cutoff when he went fro J Hydro to OSY.

The Pro commision informed me this was a safe overlap rule and that the OPC's use this rule as well. The difference is OPC's are straped in and enclosed. Not safe for open cock pit racing.

I hope that Steve,Paul and Dave can look at this again.
Like I said, the lane 12 boat has the right of way if in the lead going into the first turn, so everyone on the inside just back off and you wont get hurt.

This rule should be governed in the General Racing rules and be consistant so everyone understands.

I hope the APBA BOD steps in and reviews all overlap rules.

This is why I never raced Pro in my 28 years of racing, I saw a 500ccH get cut off at Lawrence Lake in 1980 while doing over 100mph sending him to the hospital.

I don't race anymore after being run over twice.
Hate to see anyone else go through what I did.

Jeff Kelly

Jeff, you said it perfectly here and this is what needs to be addressed.....

[ian]

Boy, I'm going to regret this but... I would suggest that the problem stems less from the particular rule, and more with the parity on which twelve boats enter the first turn on a regular basis. I ran only stuff with pipes for twenty five years, and have only gotten back into CSH in the past three or so. I feel much more secure going into the first turn in a 350 than the C. In the past three seasons I have been chopped, banged into, and banged into others on a regular basis. At least in our area, this is considered " Just racing ". And frankly, it's fun.
The rule can be hashed out over and over. I like the pro rule, because I believe in as much personal responsibilty on the driver as possible. If you have individuals endangering other drivers on the race course, penalize that individual quickly and decisively. Of course, you could spend countless hours arguing rules that will not be enforced anyway......

[sponsonhead]

At last, someone gets it

Bingo, Bango, Bongo, Ian. You get the prize for getting it!

The Pro Overlap Rule as stated works fine for the bore and stroke classes because rarely do you have 12 boats all occupying the same place at the same time. The SO/MO is different in that the boats are much more evenly matched and that's where the problem is.

R-19

[Brian10s]

The rule can be hashed out over and over. I like the pro rule, because I believe in as much personal responsibilty on the driver as possible

As much as it pains me to agree with Ian, he does have a point. While the Pro rule might have it's issues as no rule can cover all events, it does provide something that the Stock rule does not. In Stock racing there is an unwritten rule that the guy on the inside can steam right up the the pin, butt against the clamps, crank as hard as he can and the guy in lane 3 has to give way, even though he was in front when he started his arc by more than a boat length, has settled his boat and is already in the turning motion (and in C, most likely he has 4 other guys on his outside sponson demanding that he hold that lane). It is a forced overlap. The inside guy has forced the issue by sticking his boat into the turn at straightaway mode and is very unlikely to hold that #1 lane, thereby either he is bouncing off somebody or blowing through the boat next to his spray (giving the appearance of a chop from the inside turnboat judges) or whatever other crazyness that happens. Basically, the inside guy is demanding the rest of the field to give way to his right to the inside. While there are a few drivers who can pull of this move and hold their lane, there are many more that can't.
In this situation, the pro rule ensures that the inside boat has no gripe or leg to stand on.
So maybe a combination of the two rules would cover more situations than either rule alone.

[22W]

If someone comes barrelling into the first turn on the inside and can't hold their lane, then they are baring away and will be disqualified as such. That doesn't seem to be much of a problem because people that can't turn usually know enough not to put themselves in a position to have to. If you want to run a boat that is fast but doesn't turn very well, that's fine, but some people trade speed for handling. I see the "Snyder Sweep" as causing more accidents and involving more boats than the occasional bump from an inside guy. I seem to remember a few experienced members of the CSR final at Wakefield angrily informing someone of what they think of being intentionally chopped. It sure as heck isn't right to drive past the first pin, make a 90 degree turn and rub pin three when there are guys on your inside. I want to win as bad as anyone, but I sure won't compromise my friends' safety to get it.