Stock Outboard Questionaire

[jpro60]

SIMPLIFY THE PROGRAM

I agree with most everything people are saying about letting attrition take care of old motors, not chasing people away, etc. But tell me how you would suggest to simplify the program while simultaneously not eliminating any motor/class combinations.

[PittmanRacing]

The Fact about the Sidwinder in A

First of all, I am not against the Sidewinder AND I voted in favor of the proposed plan which will obsolete 2 of the 3 motors we own. Consider we have also only been in Stock Outboard for 2 years now! There have also been some great ideas shared here from many thoughtful people.

Why is the Sidewinder in A? To sell motors in one of the biggest classes in SO. The fact is, they don't run competitively in any other class. Second, if nothing changes in A, you will have to get a Sidewinder if you want to win at nationals. No doubt Jay Fox and Dave Bennett have a couple of the fastest A's in the country and they were no better than 3rd fastest at nationals this year. Like any race, many other things can make a difference, yet all things remaining the same, the Sidewinder is faster......period. It is a simple matter of CI, rpm, and raw horsepower. Another validation, how many years have the OMC's been tweaking to get to their current speeds and how many years have the Sidewinder been at it in A? One is maxed out, the other is at the beginning of the improvement process.

Again, I am not saying anything negative about the Sidewinder. We have to be honest about the facts. So if the Sidewinder remains in A as is, you need to plan on buying one if you want to win. There is not parity like in the Yamato classes.

[Ron Hill]

96 "WET" A Hydros: How Many Sidewinders???

ASH (06220)

Rank Boat # Name City, State Races Total Points
1 ABBY POND MIDLOTHIAN, VA 25 8455
2 TONY LOMBARDO CONCORD, CA 15 5903
3 AMY SWEENEY DELAWARE, OH 15 4869
4 DAVID BENNETT ST AUGUSTINE, FL 13 4417
5 GEORGE STILLWILL JR LURAY, VA 15 4216
6 OLIVIA VALENTINE CHEHALIS, WA 15 3841
7 DAVID HALE SUNLAND, CA 24 3781
8 BECKY NICHOLS COCOA, FL 16 3368
9 COLIN RUCKER MOUNTLAKE TERRACE, WA 14 3283
10 MANNY DIAS RIVERSIDE, RI 12 3272
11 COLLEEN TWEEDY MANSFIELD, MA 11 3068
12 STEPHEN LISIUS REDFORD, MI 13 3017
13 RACHEL WARNOCK PEWAUKEE, WI 12 2736
14 TAMMY DAWE ADELANTO, CA 6 2700
15 AARON PETERSON RENTON, WA 11 2616
16 DANIEL MAX ACIERNO SAYVILLE, NY 10 2393
17 NICHOLAS NOWAK MARBLEHEAD, MA 9 2314
18 BRITTNEY SCHWARZENBACH APPLE VALLEY, CA 12 2219
19 WILLIAM AUDETTE NEW BEDFORD, MA 9 2216
20 JEFFREY CONANT GLENDALE, AZ 9 2214
21 ROBERT LISIUS REDFORD, MI 11 2151
22 CALLIE SHENSKY FLAT ROCK, MI 6 2100
23 MICHAEL WRIGHT HUNTINGTON BEACH, CA 14 2094
24 MARLEE HILL HUNTINGTON BEACH, CA 10 2072
25 JENNIFER PRZYBYLA EAST TROY, WI 7 1901
26 PAMELA WILDE PLEASANT HILL, CA 14 1834
27 BRUCE HANSEN PUKALANI, HI 6 1775
28 J MICHAEL KELLY BONNEY LAKE, WA 8 1775
29 MICHAEL SHEPARD ANTIOCH, IL 9 1692
30 JARED MARTIN BLACK DIAMOND, WA 13 1663
31 CASEY CARR NEW BERN, NC 9 1630
32 ERIN PITTMAN NEW ALBANY, IN 14 1611
33 AARON SALMON SHORELINE, WA 6 1552
34 NICOLE DUNLAP TRULY MONROE, WA 14 1542
35 JOHN HOFFMANN WHITEWATER, WI 9 1539
36 KELLY HANNON HILLSBORO, OR 8 1500
37 ROB DIXON CANADA, 4 1431
38 DANIEL E KORPE KENT, WA 9 1404
39 KATE AUGUSTINE GAITHERSBURG, MD 7 1344
40 GRACE LISIUS REDFORD, MI 7 1230
41 ROBERT J WEST MANTECA, CA 4 1194
42 KAITLYN GLOSSNER TABERNACLE, NJ 7 1185
43 CARL HOLT LOWELLVILLE, OH 6 1170
44 NICOLE KNUDSON CHINO, CA 5 1135
45 JARED WALLACH REDONDO BCH, CA 10 1119
46 JACK CAVANAUGH SHAPLEIGH, ME 4 1094
47 CAITLIN FULLER UNION BEACH, NJ 11 1063
48 HOLDEN MACKEY DEKALB, IL 10 1063
49 PETER CROWLEY NORTHBOROUGH, MA 3 1027
50 ELEK HUTCHINSON SOUTH LYON, MI 4 930
51 JAY FOX BAY CITY, MI 1 900
52 STEPHEN B WILDE PLEASANT HILL, CA 6 877
53 TRACY TROLIAN MILAN, MI 4 818
54 DONNY ALLEN OSHKOSH, WI 2 800
55 TIM HERMAN TEMPE, AZ 7 798
56 AMANDA RICH BULLHEAD CITY, AZ 10 785
57 BILLY R ALLEN QUINCY, MA 3 769
58 AARON FORINO BROADBROOK, CT 3 733
59 ANDY HANSEN OSHKOSH, WI 2 700
60 VALERIE DAGOSTINO BOWIE, MD 4 680
61 SARAH BLOOMFIELD HOT SULPHUR SPRINGS, CO 9 646
62 PAUL A PRICE HAYMARKET, VA 2 638
63 ALEX BLOOMFIELD HOT SULPHUR SPRINGS, CO 5 627
64 JOHN JACK DECK III CHARDON, OH 4 578
65 BRIAN MARONEY BURLINGTON , WA 9 522
66 CHIP FULLER UNION BEACH, NJ 3 433
67 JOSEPH WATERSON BROOKSVILLE, FL 2 422
68 KYLE LEWIS SEATTLE , WA 1 400
69 MATT DAGOSTINO BOWIE, MD 2 400
70 JOSEPH PINNER LAKE WORTH, FL 1 338
71 JIM HOWE W GARDINER, ME 2 338
72 CODY BROWN GRASS LAKE , MI 2 317
73 COLLEN MEYERS HUBER HEIGHTS, OH 2 311
74 BRENT DILLARD DALZELL, SC 2 296
75 DAKOTA KROLL APPLETON, WI 2 240
76 JAKE QUESSE DEPUE, IL 2 222
77 JAMES KLEIN DAVISBURG, MI 3 219
78 SHANE THOMPSON RENTON, WA 5 217
79 EDWARD HARRINGTON WEST BEND, WI 2 202
80 KEVIN CURTIS HUNTINGTON BEACH, CA 2 198
81 BILLY SIMMONS NEWTON, NJ 1 190
82 TIMOTHY SCHMELTZ ELK GROVE, CA 2 157
83 JOHNNY ADAMS MONROE, WA 2 135
84 JOHN WLODARSKI III NEWTON, NJ 1 127
85 SHERRI HATHAWAY BEAVERTON, OR 2 124
86 WILLIAM HOLMAN SACRAMENTO, CA 2 124
87 CHRISTINE BREWSTER RAVENNA, OH 1 107
88 LAURA WHEELER KALAMAZOO, MI 1 95
89 ROGER PRZYBYLA EAST TROY, WI 1 95
90 JACE SCHEFFLER NEENAH, WI 1 71
91 HOWARD PICKERELL JR WATER MILL, NY 1 53
92 JOHN PEETERS ARLINGTON, WA 1 23
93 JODI HOOVER ARLINGTON, WA 1 0
94 ASHLEY RUCKER MOUNTLAKE TERRACE, WA 1 0
95 RYAN RUNNE NEW BERN, NC 1 0
96 MICHAEL SWEENEY DELAWARE, OH 1 0

[Boatracer4fun]

I don't run stock outboards anymore. However I can't wait for my son to be old enough to run J.

I'm curious to know what the reason is from the racers who are against the SW?

If the price tag was the same as an OMC, would More racers run the SW?

[Ron Hill]

I For One Am Not Against The Sidewinder

I am for Tohatsu, Yamaha and Dixie Mud Motors. The problem that I see, the Sidewinder and the Evinrude/Johnson 15A have been put in the same class and a Sidewinder passes most 15A's like a Freight Train Passes a tramp (Homeless person).

I 1005 support the Sidewinder having its own class called 15 SS. And I 100% support the Evinrude/Johnson/Mercury to be the A Motor.

What is wrong with being able to race AXS, A and 15 SS on the same boat? Merc for AXS, Evinrude for A, a Sidewinder for 15 SS.

Dixie Mudmotors is what we should be racing, they are 4 strokes. Put one of these on a hydro...http://www.dixiemudmotors.net/3.html and hang on.

[blueskyracer]

I am for Tohatsu, Yamaha and Dixie Mud Motors. The problem that I see, the Sidewinder and the Evinrude/Johnson 15A have been put in the same class and a Sidewinder passes most 15A's like a Freight Train Passes a tramp (Homeless person).

I 1005 support the Sidewinder having its own class called 15 SS. And I 100% support the Evinrude/Johnson/Mercury to be the A Motor.

What is wrong with being able to race AXS, A and 15 SS on the same boat? Merc for AXS, Evinrude for A, a Sidewinder for 15 SS.

Dixie Mudmotors is what we should be racing, they are 4 strokes. Put one of these on a hydro...http://www.dixiemudmotors.net/3.html and hang on.

Ron you need to mount one of those mud motors on a hydro!

[Ron Hill]

Considering everything

The Vanguard V-2 is a 3,600 RPM motor, cost $1,500 with an electric starter. The Dixie Mud Motor has a 14: 19 gear ratio. The rev limiter is mechanical, and when disconnected, the motor will turn 5,000 RPM's and has a three year warrantee. I have my DIY Outboard under construction, I will run a 19:14 ratio. I am building my outboard as a Do It Yourself Outboard.

Vanguard is built by Briggs and Stratton, ever hear of Jr. Dragster???

Top three pictures are my 15 HP DIY Motor.

Bottom picture is the "MOCK UP" of my 23 HP motor....

Sorry toHi Jack this thread, but there is a big world out there.....

[HRTV]

Ron,

APBA should have been courting BRP years ago but no... The engineers at BRP could have developed the same format of racing and motors for Stock Outboard.

125 Junior MAX, the 125 MAX, the 125 MAX DD2 and the 125 MAX DD2 Masters race series.

http://www.brp.com/en-us/engines/rotax-kart-engines

The Rotax MAX Challenge is the biggest kart racing series in the world. The national, continental and international series of the Rotax MAX Challenge now has more than 15,000 drivers across more than 50 countries in four different classes.

[G Stillwill]

Ron this is not about putting together mud motors or making anything in the junk pile work this is about a new person coming into the sport and being able to buy a new motor that will run with the pack and has a chance to win. Or buy a used outfit to get get boat time then move on to the new motors. We really dont need anymore classes as that is how we got to have so many classes already, every time a motor is produced to replace an old motor it ends up in a new class. The 25SS was supposed to replace the 20H and ended up in its own class, the 15 Hotord was to replace the KG-4 it ended up in its own class, and so on and so forth. Yes it took years to get the OMC to be as fast as the good ones are but that is because its a fishing motor on a racing gear foot as such there is a lot of tweaking that has to be done to it. The Sidewinder all that tweaking has already been done because it is made for racing. Im pretty good with motors and dont see anything I could do to it to make it faster other then props. I own and dive the boat Matt ran and if he didnt get the starts he did it wouldnt been out front. Jay Fox was faster on top end but got bad starts both heats and if Matt had of got behind him he would have never got passed him or any of the very good OMC's I have been beaten by Amy, Dave and Abby this past year and the boat is faster with me in it then with Matt in it.

[HRTV]

Ron this is not about putting together mud motors or making anything in the junk pile work this is about a new person coming into the sport and being able to buy a new motor that will run with the pack and has a chance to win. Or buy a used outfit to get get boat time then move on to the new motors. We really dont need anymore classes as that is how we got to have so many classes already, every time a motor is produced to replace an old motor it ends up in a new class. The 25SS was supposed to replace the 20H and ended up in its own class, the 15 Hotord was to replace the KG-4 it ended up in its own class, and so on and so forth. Yes it took years to get the OMC to be as fast as the good ones are but that is because its a fishing motor on a racing gear foot as such there is a lot of tweaking that has to be done to it. The Sidewinder all that tweaking has already been done because it is made for racing. Im pretty good with motors and dont see anything I could do to it to make it faster other then props. I own and dive the boat Matt ran and if he didnt get the starts he did it wouldnt been out front. Jay Fox was faster on top end but got bad starts both heats and if Matt had of got behind him he would have never got passed him or any of the very good OMC's I have been beaten by Amy, Dave and Abby this past year and the boat is faster with me in it then with Matt in it.

George look at my post directly under Ron's homemade motor and ask yourself why this was never done? The R&D team at BRP could have knocked out 4 motors for Stock Outboard racing in their sleep!

4 motors massed produced by BRP which could be brought using your AMEX or Visa card at locations all around the world.

125 Junior MAX, the 125 MAX, the 125 MAX DD2 and the 125 MAX DD2 Masters race series.


National Rotax MAX Challenge (RMC):
nearly 5 000 active Rotax MAX drivers in the RMC programme
competing in over 50 countries around the globe
the Rotax MAX Challenge became the most famous race class in the world when?


International / Continental Rotax MAX Challenge competitions:
Rotax MAX Euro Challenge (over 150 drivers participating)
Rotax MAX Asia Challenge (Indonesia, Malaysia, Thailand, Japan, China, Singapore)
Rotax MAX Pan America & Caribbean Challenge …


CONCEPT OF RMC
The Rotax MAX Challenge (RMC) is a professional kart racing series established, owned and organized by BRP-Powertrain
and its distributors. The RMC is a "one-make-engine" formula: only Rotax kart engines are allowed. There are three different
race classes:

http://www.maxchallenge-rotax.com/fa...s/concept.html

[csh2z]

The overwhelming consensus among Stock Outboard commissioners is that we are NOT going to eliminate any motors. Please stop spreading unfounded rumors and inuendo. This thread is not helping to solve anything.

[HRTV]

The overwhelming consensus among Stock Outboard commissioners is that we are NOT going to eliminate any motors. Please stop spreading unfounded rumors and inuendo. This thread is not helping to solve anything.

John,

Happy Birthday :-)

Just wondering why after decades of conversations and research that the APBA mainly the Stock Outboard division has never gone to a manufacture and ask them to design a series of motors which could be run in the category.

I vaguely remember the Merc Challenge back in the day and other such programs that were a huge success. Has anyone on the commission approached the design team at BRP in the last few years?

Not saying that they would jump at the idea but at the very least you might get a one off prototype motor out of them to showcase around the country with the intent to spark interest.

*Keep in mind that I am not talking about going to a manufacture asking for money or looking for sponsorship. I am simply asking has anyone on the SORC contacted the design team at BRP and ask for a meet and greet session to throw out ideas over lunch. At the very least you would open the lines of communication and possibilities for the future. There have been numerous racing deals and designs that all started on a napkin over lunch.

Think outside of the box.

[csh2z]

Dan,
To my knowledge, no. I don't recall a time that we have actively persued anyone about producing a motor for us outside of our history/connections with Mercury and OMC. And these relationships are still relevant today. Bear in mind, Stock as we know it began in the 50's with Mercury. In the mid-late 60's the new J motor. Early 70's with the 25SS Merc and the Swanson Hot Rod. Mid 70's, Yamato 80 & later the 102, the 35SS from Merc and the Crescent Super C. Mid 80's, OMC with the new A and 45SS as well as the Merc 25XS & 44XS. Early 90's the 302 Yamato.
So until recently, we never had the need. Ideas like yours and Ron Hills have come up from time to time but there never was the type of urgency required to persue it. Hopefully we can keep this thing going long enough for the next generation to deal with it.

[Scott Deware]

After reading many of the posts I guess I will toss my hat into the ring.

1. I hear all the time about declining membership "numbers." I have never heard or seen who these numbers actually represent. Who are the "lost" members. Has anyone actually audited these memberships to see what age the people are, were they racers or non-racers, people that raced two races a year or ten races or more a year, were they members for one or two years or twenty years, did we have multiple non-renewals from families or were the majority individual members. How about something as simple as how many non-renewals were because the member died (just like NASCAR and most all established motorsports organizations, we do have an aging membership). We tend to look at the gross numbers and forget that there is a story to each non-renewal. If we put these stories together we will get a better look at where we really are. I know many out there will now say that they know of leaders and racers that their club has lost and I'm sure every Region has those losses, but I will bet that many of the lost members were not currently contributing members. Yes APBA and a local club may have lost the annual dues, but that may have been all they lost.

I also hear about total entries being down and fewer races being run. I know that over the years average class entries are less (they have also declined at local short tracks, SCCA, and IHRA and NHRA regional events), but I have not seen any numbers of how less entries coinside with events canceled because of low water, weather and other unavoidable conditions (it seems that we have had more than the usual in the last couple of years), vs. races that have just faded away. In Region One we have added new race sites and regained at least one site this year that last hosted a SO event in the early 60's.

My point is that in the end we need to have the real story behind the numbers if we are to understand the situation. We need to know who IS joining and why, and who IS leaving and why (how about a mailed survey or better yet, a phone survey from the local club member to a non-renewing member asking why?). We need to understand where we are with race sites and the future viability of these or new sites. We all have theories for what is happening (rules, politics, economics), lets get real answers. Asking those who have decided to leave and are not as vocal as posting people may be a start.

2. Parity in classes and cost - I know that the goal for years has been parity to make the racing better. First off I don't think it is possible. Even with a single engine class. Someone will always have better equipment, work harder to make themselves faster or just plain be better than the rest. Yes NASCAR works at partity and does a good job at it, but it comes at a big cost. Take it from a NASCAR team owner who right now has to spend over $20K per Nationwide car (that's X 8) just to make some silly changes that will not make the cars any faster or slower or safer. It is just because NASCAR wants it done.

One of the things that makes this type of racing work is that it is cost effective. If you think this racing is expensive make a few calls. Try other leasure racing sports. SCCA, way more money and time, Kart racing, way more money and time, heck, I have three girls that all Ski race, have you priced racing skis and ski equipment lately. We have a very cost effective form of racing, and because for the most part none of us have dreams of us or our kids signing million dollar contracts to race boats, we are still pretty civil to each other at the racesite. I agree that there is a time to retire engines, but why is it we never talk about retiring old boat designs? Because it takes care of itself. When a design is no longer competitive people stop using it. If an engine is still competitive (Regionally) why not race it. I'm not saying that it is favored over other designs, but why legislate a viable engine out.

As for new engines, I see that same thing. Don't favor one with rules, make the driver earn it on the race course. I like what I saw in an earlier post regarding the A class.

To para phrase- When looking at times the Merc with AXH weight runs similar times to the A OMC 15. The Sidewinder faster. It seems to me for ASH that if you let the Merc run at the AXH weight, the OMC at current A weight and work out a weight for the Sidewinder, you would have three eligible motors and the possibility of increased entries (AKA larger classes and more club revenue). Also, this reinforces the development process for Juniors to continue racing without needing to buy all new equipment as they get older.

And to add to that...why again would we outlaw the OMC 15? No it is not new, but they are plentiful and it's an economical step for many racers (and parents of racers) to get started without having to take out a home mortgage. Not every racer is going to go to the Nationals. Sometimes a good economical way to race local and have fun is all that is needed.

As for classes, if a Region has sufficient numbers in a class, even if Nationally the numbers are not there, make it a Regional class. Look at the OPC GT classes they run in MN as "local Classes." They do very well and it works for them. If APBA decided to do away with those classes because they were not National classes we would loose more APBA and club members and several good race events each year. I am a fan of fewer classes, but lets first look to see if a class is viable or not viable as a National Class. I also feel that we should allow certain classes to be able to "step-up." Back in the "old days" of the "80's" (70's also but I was not around then), OPC would allow certain class boats to "step up" to help field size and make sure boats did not sit on the beach. Could this be an option for some classes and equipment, maybe.

I got out of F1 tunnels almost twenty years ago. I got back into boat racing last year because I was looking for a economical, family motorsport for my oldest daughter. She is now racing J and AX. I have two more on the way, and this weekend I may have enlisting one of my daughters friends (another girl!) to try J class next year. My daughter runs a Merc, but because I can get an OMC at a reasonable price and have found inexpensive starter boats, I'm looking at putting together at least one, maybe two more J boats for 2013. I could not do this if I had to go out and buy all new equipment.

That's all I have for now. I'm interested in hearing any of your thoughts.

Scott Deware

[Ron Hill]

What Is Classic Stock?

I looked on APBA's Web Page and can't find Classic Stock, it may be there, but I couldn't find it.

Nice post, Scott. I don't agree with it in total, but well thought out and well said!