Stock Outboard Questionaire

[csh12M]

Ironic....

It is kind of ironic that this is being discussed again.....

Fundamentally, I still think it is necessary. The plan I previously proposed only had one motor/class that did not have a home. It was 25XS Hydro. The plan would get us back to A/B/C/D class structure and now 302 sealed. The number one reasoning for me was based around cost.

The cost of racing seems to have significantly increased. Competitive rigs can cost upwards of $6-10K. For that cost, you get two 10 minute heats per day. Therefore the majority of racers race multiple classes to get "water time". Less classes would allow us to race classes more per weekend. 3 and 2 racing or three heat per race. This potentially cuts the cost of racing in HALF for racers, by eliminating the need for a second or third class.

I am not sure racers will or will not embrace this concept? The previous proposal I had submitted lost by 20 votes (ten peoples vote).

Personally, I would like to own less equipment, but race it more per day.

I am not sure everyone feels the same way.

12M

[Big Don]

Here is plan “B” since the last one was not liked very much. Like the other proposal, nothing has been decided, and this can be adjusted to make work. This is just a suggestion, the SORC has not decided anything and it’s the first time some are seeing this. It’s a small spin off of the one from two years ago.

ASH/ASR - BSH/BSR – CSH/CSR – DSH/DSR

Maximum retention of current membership has been strongly considered (see effected drivers in the notes section). The following classes and motors would be contracted with potentially no place to race within the SO category.

While the following class structure and proposal will streamline SO structure, success will depend on class parity committees and procedures for success and growth. The proposed structure will offer a New Motor and Used Motor option for every class. While parity may be difficult to achieve it is absolutely critical for sustained growth. If parity can be achieved the following structure offers both low cost used equipment options and higher cost new equipment options. While many feel that single motor classes are more desirable they are not practical for different economic entry points within the category. Therefore the parity committees and procedure are critical to success within the category.

Classes:

ASH/ASR: No change within the current ASH/ASR classes.
Targeted for individuals weighing 135-160lbs
Target Speed: ASR – 52-54MPH
ASH – 55-57MPH
• Current OMC motors, weight 345 ASH, 350 ASR, no other changes to the current class
• Current Mercury motor, weight 345 ASH, 350 ASR, no other changes to the current class
• Current Sidewinder 15A, weight 345 ASH, 350 ASR no other changes to the current class
It is critical for the parity committee to balance the competition within the class to promote Sidewinder sales while not making the Johnson and Evinrude obsolete within the next three years.

BSH: The BSH class would consist of several different motor options with various weights to aid in achieving parity.
Targeted for drivers weighing from 160-185lbs
Target Speed: BSH – 62-65MPH
• Current Sidewinder 15ci at 12CC, weight 365, no other changes to the current class rules
• Current Rotary Valve Hot Rod at 12CC, weight 365, no other changes to the current class rules
• Current Sidewinder 20CI Motor, Weight 395, no other changes to the current class rules
• Current Yamato 80 (20SSH), weight 400lbs, no other changes to the current class rules

BSR: The BSR would combine the current BSR Hot Rod Rotary Valve Motor and potentially the Sidewinder 15ci with the 20CI Sidewinder.
Targeted for drivers weighing from 160-185lbs
Target Speed: BSR – 59-61MPH
• Current Sidewinder 15ci at 12CC, weight 360, no other changes to the current class rules
• Current Rotary Valve Hot Rod at 12CC, weight 360, no other changes to the current class rules
• Current Sidewinder 20CIMotor, Weight, 395, no other changes to the current class rules
• BSR – Rollup boats only or Rollup and Sidefin boats?????

CSH: The CSH class has no change with the exception of possible inclusion of the 25SSH class, subject to parity package on the 25SSH.
Targeted for drivers weighing from 185-210lbs
Target Speed: CSH – 65-68MPH
• Current Yamato 102 and 302, weight 440, with no other changes to the current class
• Current Mercury 25XS, weight TBD, with a parity package (Restrictor) Require the Mercury 25XS to run the .685 x 1.245 flat sided oval restrictor, to bring speeds under 68MPH?

CSR: The CSR class would consist of several different motor options with various weights to aid in achieving parity.
Targeted for drivers weighing from 175-210lbs
Target Speed: CSR – 62-65MPH
• Current Yamato 102 and 302, weight 475, no other changes to the current class rules
• Current Sidewinder 20CI as run in 25SSR, weight 395, no other changes to the current class rules
• Restricted Yamato 102 and 302 as run in 25SSR, weight for 7/16 restrictor 440, 9/16 weight 420
• Mercury 25XS, as run in 25SSR, weight 415– Require the Mercury 25XS to run the .685 x 1.245 flat sided oval restrictor, as ran pre 2006????

DSH/DSR: No changes to the current DSH and DSR classes.
Targeted for drivers weighing 200-245
Target Speed: DSR – 70-73MPH
DSH – 75-83MPH

[pav225]

20ssH

Where does the Sidewinder 20ci fit into this picture? You mention 2 of the available 3 motors in 20ssh. I'm curious as to your thoughts on the 3rd motor.

As I sit here this winter ready to spend money on several rides, one of which is a carbon creation which would allow me to run 20ssh I find myself at a standstill. Do I put the money into a 302 or a Sidewinder? I'll be honest it's staying in my pocket because I don't feel there is a clear picture in 20ssh.

Troy,

[csh12M]

Ok, now it is really IRONIC......

I think I recognize plan B

Here is plan “B” since the last one was not liked very much. Like the other proposal, nothing has been decided, and this can be adjusted to make work. This is just a suggestion, the SORC has not decided anything and it’s the first time some are seeing this. It’s a small spin off of the one from two years ago.

ASH/ASR - BSH/BSR – CSH/CSR – DSH/DSR

Maximum retention of current membership has been strongly considered (see effected drivers in the notes section). The following classes and motors would be contracted with potentially no place to race within the SO category.

While the following class structure and proposal will streamline SO structure, success will depend on class parity committees and procedures for success and growth. The proposed structure will offer a New Motor and Used Motor option for every class. While parity may be difficult to achieve it is absolutely critical for sustained growth. If parity can be achieved the following structure offers both low cost used equipment options and higher cost new equipment options. While many feel that single motor classes are more desirable they are not practical for different economic entry points within the category. Therefore the parity committees and procedure are critical to success within the category.

Classes:

ASH/ASR: No change within the current ASH/ASR classes.
Targeted for individuals weighing 135-160lbs
Target Speed: ASR – 52-54MPH
ASH – 55-57MPH
• Current OMC motors, weight 345 ASH, 350 ASR, no other changes to the current class
• Current Mercury motor, weight 345 ASH, 350 ASR, no other changes to the current class
• Current Sidewinder 15A, weight 345 ASH, 350 ASR no other changes to the current class
It is critical for the parity committee to balance the competition within the class to promote Sidewinder sales while not making the Johnson and Evinrude obsolete within the next three years.

BSH: The BSH class would consist of several different motor options with various weights to aid in achieving parity.
Targeted for drivers weighing from 160-185lbs
Target Speed: BSH – 62-65MPH
• Current Sidewinder 15ci at 12CC, weight 365, no other changes to the current class rules
• Current Rotary Valve Hot Rod at 12CC, weight 365, no other changes to the current class rules
• Current Sidewinder 20CI Motor, Weight 395, no other changes to the current class rules
• Current Yamato 80 (20SSH), weight 400lbs, no other changes to the current class rules

BSR: The BSR would combine the current BSR Hot Rod Rotary Valve Motor and potentially the Sidewinder 15ci with the 20CI Sidewinder.
Targeted for drivers weighing from 160-185lbs
Target Speed: BSR – 59-61MPH
• Current Sidewinder 15ci at 12CC, weight 360, no other changes to the current class rules
• Current Rotary Valve Hot Rod at 12CC, weight 360, no other changes to the current class rules
• Current Sidewinder 20CIMotor, Weight, 395, no other changes to the current class rules
• BSR – Rollup boats only or Rollup and Sidefin boats?????

CSH: The CSH class has no change with the exception of possible inclusion of the 25SSH class, subject to parity package on the 25SSH.
Targeted for drivers weighing from 185-210lbs
Target Speed: CSH – 65-68MPH
• Current Yamato 102 and 302, weight 440, with no other changes to the current class
• Current Mercury 25XS, weight TBD, with a parity package (Restrictor) Require the Mercury 25XS to run the .685 x 1.245 flat sided oval restrictor, to bring speeds under 68MPH?

CSR: The CSR class would consist of several different motor options with various weights to aid in achieving parity.
Targeted for drivers weighing from 175-210lbs
Target Speed: CSR – 62-65MPH
• Current Yamato 102 and 302, weight 475, no other changes to the current class rules
• Current Sidewinder 20CI as run in 25SSR, weight 395, no other changes to the current class rules
• Restricted Yamato 102 and 302 as run in 25SSR, weight for 7/16 restrictor 440, 9/16 weight 420
• Mercury 25XS, as run in 25SSR, weight 415– Require the Mercury 25XS to run the .685 x 1.245 flat sided oval restrictor, as ran pre 2006????

DSH/DSR: No changes to the current DSH and DSR classes.
Targeted for drivers weighing 200-245
Target Speed: DSR – 70-73MPH
DSH – 75-83MPH

[14J]

Personally, I would like to own less equipment, but race it more per day.

I am not sure everyone feels the same way.

12M

You are spot on and know that some agree.

[pav225]

20ssH

Where does the Sidewinder 20ci fit into this picture? You mention 2 of the available 3 motors in 20ssh. I'm curious as to your thoughts on the 3rd motor.

As I sit here this winter ready to spend money on several rides, one of which is a carbon creation which would allow me to run 20ssh I find myself at a standstill. Do I put the money into a 302 or a Sidewinder? I'll be honest it's staying in my pocket because I don't feel there is a clear picture in 20ssh.

Troy,
The 20ssH has two very competitive, and closely matched, motors with the Y80 and restricted Y302. They offer folks a great opportunity to enter the 20ssH class at 2 different price points (approx $1400 for a Y80 and $2500 for a Y302). Sure the Y80 is an older motor, but there are still plenty of good ones around and enough parts to keep them running. If someone has more money, and prefers a new motor, the Y302 is a great option for them.

I personally believe that a 3rd motor has never been necessary for 20ssH, adds a lot of confusion, and causes folks to keep their money in their pocket.

- Mike

[dholt]

I would argue the restricted 302 and 80 are not terribly equal.

The past 2 seasons results have demontrated that. And not just from 1-2 races...or the results of 1-2 racers.

The 302 is faster. It's the motor of choice now if you want to win.

[pav225]

I would argue the restricted 302 and 80 are not terribly equal.

The past 2 seasons results have demontrated that. And not just from 1-2 races...or the results of 1-2 racers.

The 302 is faster. It's the motor of choice now if you want to win.

Your missing the point Dana.

For most races, the Y80 and Y302 are equally matched. Definitely close enough to have a good race with both motors in the field.

As far as parity goes: A Y80 finished 2nd in the last 2 Nationals...and 2nd & 3rd this year. In fact (2) Y80s finished ahead of Joe in a Y302.

The point is, there is no need for a 3rd motor in 20ssH, and there is no need to eliminate the Y80 from the class. We have folks in our Region that are racing Y80s and would stop racing if the Y80 was removed from 20ssH, because they do not, or cannot, buy a Y302.

- Mike

[R13racer]

Things to think about

Personally, I would like to own less equipment, but race it more per day.

As a Pro guy I think condensing stock classes is great!

More time on the water is what we all want but we need to remember that the cost of conducting a race has not decreased. With less classes = less entries (at least in the beginning) = entry fees increasing or running multiple races of the same class in one day (try explaining that to a spectator). I don’t care one way or another. If there is a boat, I will want to race it…

Please keep in mind when coming up with proposals:
Having the ability to run the same equipment in multiple classes, like we currently do, is a strength in our type of racing. That said, our spectator (if we are lucky spectators) need to be able to distinguish between classes. Run the same boat and engine all day but make color coded engine covers or stick on boat decals or something to identify what class is on the water.

Whatever J is using for a boat/engine, A must use the same. A low cost transition for parents is very important.

Keep the restricted Yamato 302 in 20/the new ”B”. It is the most “Stock” Stock engine we have, you can buy one and it’s at a reasonable price.

My opinion: No offence to anyone but the few sidewinders I have seen have stuck almost as many pistons as I have in my 350. I would hate for a new racer to have to deal with that. Maybe people have gotten them figured out but I am nervous if we start eliminating other engines for the Sidewinder.

Zach Malhiot
R-13: 350H, 350R
Hired Gun for Moby Grape Racing

[Affholter66]

Just another $0.02

How about this????.....

**denotes "Primary" Motor

ASR/ASH Sidewinder 15**/OMC 15/Merc 15 (increase wt for SW by 10lbs-15lbs??)
BSR/BSH Sidewinder 20**/Hot Rod
25SSR Merc25XS**/Yamato 102 or 302 (One Restrictor size..One weight)
20SSH Yamato 80**/Yamato 102 or 302 (One Restrictor Size..One weight)
CSR/CSH Yamato 302**/Yamato 102/Mercury 30H (why not?? if ya got one and want to run it!!)
DSR/DSR Mercury 44XS**/Tohatsu**/Mercury 55H (Ditto from C Class)

Kinda looks the same as what we have...why?? because CLASS RE-STRUCTURING isn't going to help bring new people into the sport..PROMOTION WILL!!!

Sincerly

Roger Affholter 68M
Team Casual Stock Outboard Racing

(This has NOT been condoned by my Team...just my own musings...and as a side note..while preparing this I realized sure hard to please everybody..thanks to all who have put time and effort into "Saving Our Sport"!!)

[jeff55v]

Here's an idea. Allow ANY class engine to install an approved and appropriate restrictor and step down to any class.
Before you laugh out loud at me, think about it, and explain to me why it's such a lousy idea. Also be prepared to tell me how it's different than what is happening in some classes already.

[csh2z]

Roger,
In, order to PROMOTE, we have to have a more marketable product. Nobody is going to pay to see fifteen 3 boat races. At least not more than once. And once your reputation is damaged (due to a poor show) at a particular racesite, gaining future sponsorship is even more difficult. Businessmen talk to each other. If a sponsor doesn't get a quality show for their money, word gets around. We have to improve our show so we can get and retain sponsorship. If we are successful, it will help to offset costs enough to make racing more affordable and therefore easier to attract new racers.
There's really no more to it than that. We are in a difficult situation, but if we want to continue to do this we are all going to have to give a little. We need your support, this is not easy for any of us.

[Richard Hearn]

This Plan B Works!

Here is plan “B” since the last one was not liked very much.

Classes:

ASH/ASR: No change within the current ASH/ASR classes.
Targeted for individuals weighing 135-160lbs
Target Speed: ASR – 52-54MPH
ASH – 55-57MPH
• Current OMC motors, weight 345 ASH, 350 ASR, no other changes to the current class
• Current Mercury motor, weight 345 ASH, 350 ASR, no other changes to the current class
• Current Sidewinder 15A, weight 345 ASH, 350 ASR no other changes to the current class
It is critical for the parity committee to balance the competition within the class to promote Sidewinder sales while not making the Johnson and Evinrude obsolete within the next three years.

BSH: The BSH class would consist of several different motor options with various weights to aid in achieving parity.
Targeted for drivers weighing from 160-185lbs
Target Speed: BSH – 62-65MPH
• Current Sidewinder 15ci at 12CC, weight 365, no other changes to the current class rules
• Current Rotary Valve Hot Rod at 12CC, weight 365, no other changes to the current class rules
• Current Sidewinder 20CI Motor, Weight 395, no other changes to the current class rules
• Current Yamato 80 (20SSH), weight 400lbs, no other changes to the current class rules

BSR: The BSR would combine the current BSR Hot Rod Rotary Valve Motor and potentially the Sidewinder 15ci with the 20CI Sidewinder.
Targeted for drivers weighing from 160-185lbs
Target Speed: BSR – 59-61MPH
• Current Sidewinder 15ci at 12CC, weight 360, no other changes to the current class rules
• Current Rotary Valve Hot Rod at 12CC, weight 360, no other changes to the current class rules
• Current Sidewinder 20CIMotor, Weight, 395, no other changes to the current class rules
• BSR – Rollup boats only or Rollup and Sidefin boats?????

As someone who races JR/JH, AXR/AXH, ASH/ASH (2013) and BSR/BSR This plan works! I only have 1 exception. Please leave the BSR as a rollup class only. It is what makes the class fun (drives like a tunnel boat / PWC). Not a threat, but I wouldn't race if it were a side fin also (as side fins would clearly be faster around the course). It would take the fun out of the class and I already have too many other classes to support with Tori/Rylan/Grant.

The Merc is no solution to the A class. First, if you buy a new motor you have to spend $1000+ to make it competitive. If you buy a used motor on eBay you have to spend another $2500+. What I do like about the Merc is that they all run nearly the same after you do the work/spend the money (hence -- good motor for J/AX). Additionally, using the Merc in the A class is a step down from AX (heavier weights). If you lower the weights for the Merc -- then why step up? It is the same class as AX.

The A Sidewinder runs. We tested this fall with it and it started and ran every time. I could also use all of my AX props and boats. I'm really looking forward to racing this motor in 2013 (unless of course it is a separate 15S class with little/no competition).

I really like the idea of using the 20ci sidewinder for the B class with heavier weights. I'm 175# and don't use any lead in my all carbon fiber boat. There is no room for gaining weight. Plus, if you weigh less than 155# and try to run the BSR you WILL go on your head. Just ask Doug Wellings. A 20# spread is too small.

I've heard complaints about the small shop of Sidewinder being a concern. Well, the Go-Karting industry runs many classes off of small shop motors.

I want to go on record as being IN SUPPORT of the Sidewinder program. AND this Plan B. Unfortunately I won't be at the annual meeting until Friday night to support it in person

I want to also note that every comment G. Stillwell makes about the Merc/OMC/Sidewinder I completely agree with (not buttering up to him -- he doesn't do my engines). I note this because he is also the only one I can see that is commenting that has the significant experience with these three engines.

I can't comment on the C/D plan.

Richard

[Fast Jack]

Merc in ASH-- AXH

Lower the weight of the Merc in A to allow it to be competative . At the currant AX weight the Merc is competative and allows easy entry in 2 classes == More money for the clubs. This also helps to elimanate 3 and 4 boat heats . I have time sheets from 3 races with some of the best AXS boats and ASh boats running very competative times. I am puting in an official request for this change .As time will tell the Sidewinder may need additional weight of lower compression to keep ASH speed where it is .

[Richard Hearn]

Issue with this recommendation...

Lower the weight of the Merc in A to allow it to be competative . At the currant AX weight the Merc is competative and allows easy entry in 2 classes == More money for the clubs. This also helps to elimanate 3 and 4 boat heats . I have time sheets from 3 races with some of the best AXS boats and ASh boats running very competative times. I am puting in an official request for this change .As time will tell the Sidewinder may need additional weight of lower compression to keep ASH speed where it is .

First issue: Grant (13 yrs old) was 130# last year (he's smaller than his other 13 yr old friends), has an all carbon boat (read: light) and uses 5# to make weight in the AXH. If you lower the weight on the Merc for the A class you will only make the Merc in the A class available to 13 yr olds (btw, they can't race A until they are 14).

Second issue: There is a larger field in AX than A usually. What benefit is there for him to race A (same rig, less competitors) if he is just racing the same AX rig? We'll just stay in the Junior category. If you don't make a step between AX and A you won't have people jumping up to the A class. Let the A class get a little faster than the AX class (I agree the AXH times are the same as the ASH times).