SO class reduction proposal, next steps

[pav225]

20ssH?

Dean,
I have seen a few different iterations of the proposal, so I will ask for some clarification...

What does your plan include for the current 20ssH class?

- Mike Pavlick

[kampkurz]

how about NOT!!!!!! This same bull**** gets tried (and shot down) EVERY year...........you will lose more drivers than you gain........guaranteed!!
......back to my cave I go..............

Thank you! What are we shooting for? A driver reduction as well as a class reduction? Geez, do we want to pinch all heavy drivers to D? I like running C and a weight reduction pushes me and a lot of other 'large' drivers right back on the beach. I don't think we should be striving for super-light CSR's. Another lightweight class to NOT run when the wind blows. Not a good idea in my opinion. Mark

[csh12M]

Your would be suprised....

The point that I was trying to make was that when someone tries to speak his mind with regard to the "class structures" if it does not agree with Deans suggestion he replies with a negativety that I for one find disheartening to say the least. It has got to the point where I sorry to say that he'd sell his soul to the devil to get his suggestions accepted! Where does he get off to think that he has all the right answers! I am pretty sure that there are many veteran racers who would probably like to voice their thoughts about the reduction suggestion!
Merry Christmas!
Carl

Hello Carl,

I am sorry that you feel my approach and post have been negative. I have tried to be transparent and truthful as to what I think needs to happen. It is just a proposal. It is based on what I have seen and heard over the past five years. It tries to "please" as many people and economic conditions as possible. However, if no one thinks it is the right way to go, or someone has a better idea, or the majority think we need to do nothing, then I am fine with that! Honestly, I have raced long enough, and over the last ten years tried to change things long enough. I just thought I would make one last attempt to "reorganize/overhaul" our structure for the better and for growth. If no one wants to try it I am good with that as well, no worries.

Cheerfully submitted,

Dean Sutherland
12M

[csh12M]

Darrell cmon.....

Dean,
You so far off what is really going on in BSR and the hot-rod Racing world!!!.
BSR has been the one of the few stock growing classes in are region and yours. If Racing Outboards would be supporting us instead of starving us out of parts we would be growing faster. There has been more Hot-Rods built and sold then sidewinders since Ron S envolment!!
The Truth is Racing Outboards has made ZERO Profits off of the sidewinder project. Ron S has sold more then $20000.00 in Hot-Rod parts since he was involved with the Hot-Rod.
We were in full support of Ron and his endeavor. He shook my hand promised us (drivers) new H-R parts and full support. He has recently continued to say that he has full intentions in building BOTH engines, the Sidewinder and Hot-Rod for racing.

The truth is that behind the scenes Hot-Rod owners and drivers have been having to buy, manufacture and trade parts between are selves. Racing outboards have been trying to starve us out of parts out for racing. They have refused to sell or just not ship parts at all. Mostly lower unit parts, this effect all small stock drivers. Leaving A, J, AXS, and Hot-Rod drivers on the beach when race weekend comes. I have had numerous drivers call me looking for omc and H-R lower unit parts and they all have same story that Racing Outboard would not sell them the parts they need to race or just never shipped them out.
Do to one of the many good things about are sport!!! I sent some emails and phone calls and I was able to put them on to other drivers that had the parts they needed to race. We have tried ordering Sidewinder (Reed engine) parts and didn’t get them!

The drivers and owner of STOCK and MOD Hot-Rods have been pooling are money and resources to make and manufacture are own replacement parts from lack of support and trust from racing outboards. We will be making new replacement Crankshafts and Blocks.
The Hot-rod classes may be the best thing for A-B kneel down racing. The H-R stock and mod classes supports and supplies itself with major engine parts. Not relying solely on a one manufacture for parts. If racing outboard falls of the planet or goes bankrupt we still will have Hot-Rods and parts to race. We the racers have more talent, knowledge and resource throughout are sport then any factory ever will.

WE DO HAVE NEW FULL CIRCLE CRANKSHAFTS DONE!!! THEY ARE BEING TESTED AND WILL BE ADVAILABLE SHORTLY.


15 H-R stock 101

The 13cc is used because most of the engines do not run at or last long at 12cc. There are a few good stock heads that by happen to run at very well at 12cc and not melt the pistons. Most of the other heads do not run at 12cc, they melt pistons or the engine have be detuned to the point that they are uncompetitive. The cc was raised to 13 to prevent engine failure and make the class more competitive by getting rid of the few good heads advantage, which was a huge problem to some drivers! I had 3 new heads and none of them worked at 12cc and I was fairly noncompetitive, now at 13.5cc they all run good and my engine is one of the fastest in the country.
Dave Little knew this and all 15 Hot-Rods left the factory at 13-14cc. The problem was that the min cc rule was 12cc . What do most racers do, they think that 12cc is faster and they cut the heads and make there engine go faster or make there pistons come out the ports.
The 13cc makes 99% of the heads equal, by not giving the few good heads an advantage.
If you ever watch BSR we are all capable of winning at nationals and no one melts pistons any more. Everyone is running even in the finals, there never is any one that really smokes the field. That is mostly do to the 13cc heads and we all run the same type of boats. It is a really true Stock class everything runs the same and equal!


Ed Hearn has no "special" motor I have seen inside of all of his engines, worked on them at one time or another. My "good" engine I believe is better then his.

Everyone has a "nationals engine, boat or prop" if you have all 3 your dam hard to beat, If you have only one of them you need to make it up some where else, but to win at nationals you have to still be able to drive it and have some luck no mater what you drive!

He is fast do to hard driving and good starting, constant testing of engine, boats, props.



53w

Darrell Cmon,

BSR growing, 12 people race this class, I mean REALLY race it. It has NOT grown in Region 6. Dana Holt is the only guy that REALLY races it.

Contrary to what you think I am not a HUGE Sidewinder honk! However, they did build a motor, and it does seem to work. It just doesn't seem to fit in the intended classes, and we have to many classes in the sport. I APPLAUD ALL YOUR EFFORTS AND PASSION for the Hot Rod. I raced it for years and LOVE that motor. However, I do not see ANY way that we can base a classes growth on it. Even if you can finally buy a "new crank" and get "new sleeves" how do you buy or build a new motor. Racing Outboards owns all the other components. Why would they sell them to you to build a motor to compete with the Sidewinder. It does not make any sense for anyone.

All I want to do is get BSR on the right track with "real" growth potential. I think we have two many classes, and I think it is easier to slow a motor down than speed one up. If we want to leave Hot Rod CC at 13, fine. If adding CC to the 20CI Sidewinder won't do it, fine. Lets try to put a restrictor plate in to bring them in line. I admit that for a year or two we may have to play with restrictors CC and weight, but I don't see any other way that we can build BSR back to the 100 member level that it should be at.

Realistically submitted, by a Hot Rod loving realist.
Dean Sutherland
12M

[blueskyracer]

Thank you! What are we shooting for? A driver reduction as well as a class reduction? Geez, do we want to pinch all heavy drivers to D? I like running C and a weight reduction pushes me and a lot of other 'large' drivers right back on the beach. I don't think we should be striving for super-light CSR's. Another lightweight class to NOT run when the wind blows. Not a good idea in my opinion. Mark

I would just like to see the A,B,C,D used for the classes and let attrition get rid of the other motors. If the new motors turn out to be faster than let them stay that way and then the old motors will slowly disappear if the folks want to win. Also don't allow aftermarket parts will help get rid of the old stuff.

I also think that there are way to many classes that are designed for the horse jockey built person. Everyone that is 6' and 200+ lbs should not have to run in DSH or turn to Mod to race.

[csh12M]

20ssh

Dean,
I have seen a few different iterations of the proposal, so I will ask for some clarification...

What does your plan include for the current 20ssH class?

- Mike Pavlick

Hello Bill, the proposal is at the beginning of the post for download.

Basically, 20SSH as it exists today in the SO category is combined with BSH as it exists today in the SO category. I also suggested that we change the CC for the Hot Rod back to 12. If we decided to keep the 15CI Sidewinder as well we could consider the same. The class would then be BSH.

What I am trying to see happen is:

1. We don't immediately obsolete any of the Yamatos
2. Still give the Hot Rod a home if someone wants to try it, but it should phase itself out of the class
3. Give the 20CI Sidewinder a class that should allow it to develop into the Motor of choice over time.

I believe it would be a mistake to allow the 15CI Sidewinder in the class. However, I am open to the will of the Commission and members on that one.

The Hot Rod should phase itself out, leaving the Yamatos and 20CI Sidewinder. The 20CI Sidewinder should have enough power to allow drivers to race 20SSH boats(36inch wide bottoms) and be competitive. If we can manage parity between those two motors we could have a good class with growth potential.

Thanks,
Dean Sutherland
12M

[csh12M]

Point of the proposal

Just to keep clarifying.

The point of my proposal is to get down to A,B,C,D for class structure. I am open to all suggestions and input to what each class should look like. However, I am trying to get it all into four classes.

As to Mikes point:

A is geared for the 145-165lb driver going in the 55MPH range.

B is geared for the 165-185lb driver going in the 65MPH range.

C is geared for the 185-205lb driver going in the 65MPH range.

D is geared for the 205+ driver going in the 75MPH range.

If we can get to this structure we have very little, if any, overlap. If you are small you race A, if you are big you race D. The majority of America is 165-205 and we have two classes at relatively the same speed for the majority.

I believe this is the first step of many to reorganize the SO Category into an organization and structure that can promote "real new name" growth. Everything else we discuss is just the details of administration. If the membership wants and passes a proposal getting us to A,B,C,D we should then freeze the structure for a period of time (ten years?) or until membership grows past a certain point. (800 members?) Otherwise we are just diluting our own Category with repetitive meaningless classes.

Thanks,
Dean Sutherland
12M

[Boatracer4fun]

how about NOT!!!!!! This same bull**** gets tried (and shot down) EVERY year...........you will lose more drivers than you gain........guaranteed!! IF the weight for CSR EVER gets changed to 440, I will be done racing FOREVER!!!!! I have already had enough of the constant idea of changing **** EVERY **** year!!! How about we NOT change anything for a change!!!!!!!

......back to my cave I go..............

I looked at the proposal and wanted to know why? Yes i get it, big drivers, but if CSR is designed for the Big drivers why not add the same to CSH. Same motors and group (C) right? Just trying to wonder why just one.

My boss once told me that CHANGE is great, however nobody likes change at first. I like the idea of the A,B,C,D class structure. Make it simple stupid.

....Ok enough internet racing for me. Time to finish my 102 Mod powerhead.

[Matt Dagostino]

Clarification..............

Dean,
I have seen a few different iterations of the proposal, so I will ask for some clarification...

What does your plan include for the current 20ssH class?

- Mike Pavlick

Mike
I thought i read the proposal included lowering the class engine height to 3/4 inch below the bottom to be uniform with the C Class Yamato engine maximum engine height.........you and the boys may want to reread it a few times to find the language!

Ho Ho Ho.

[csh12M]

Mike
I thought i read the proposal included lowering the class engine height to 3/4 inch below the bottom to be uniform with the C Class Yamato engine maximum engine height.........you and the boys may want to reread it a few times to find the language!

Ho Ho Ho.

Matt,

My proposal did not change any prop shaft heights in any classes or configurations.

Thanks,
Dean

[14J]

I also think that there are way to many classes that are designed for the horse jockey built person. Everyone that is 6' and 200+ lbs should not have to run in DSH or turn to Mod to race.

Amen. Another flaw for another day:

weight = speed

[Matt Dagostino]

Making Mike Anxious.............

Matt,

My proposal did not change any prop shaft heights in any classes or configurations.

Thanks,
Dean

Dean
I know. I was just busting on Mikey..........

Matt

[Fast Jack]

Contridictions

Just to keep clarifying.

The point of my proposal is to get down to A,B,C,D for class structure. I am open to all suggestions and input to what each class should look like. However, I am trying to get it all into four classes.

As to Mikes point:

A is geared for the 145-165lb driver going in the 55MPH range.

B is geared for the 165-185lb driver going in the 65MPH range.

C is geared for the 185-205lb driver going in the 65MPH range.

D is geared for the 205+ driver going in the 75MPH range.

If we can get to this structure we have very little, if any, overlap. If you are small you race A, if you are big you race D. The majority of America is 165-205 and we have two classes at relatively the same speed for the majority.

I believe this is the first step of many to reorganize the SO Category into an organization and structure that can promote "real new name" growth. Everything else we discuss is just the details of administration. If the membership wants and passes a proposal getting us to A,B,C,D we should then freeze the structure for a period of time (ten years?) or until membership grows past a certain point. (800 members?) Otherwise we are just diluting our own Category with repetitive meaningless classes.

Thanks,
Dean Sutherland
12M

By your own chart 25 ssh will not fit in any class. 25 ssh should remain unchanged as a national points class. correct ?? Shawn

[pav225]

Dean
I know. I was just busting on Mikey..........

Matt

Happy New Year Matt!

I understand your frustration over the 20ssH height and how we were against changing it to 3/4" below the bottom. I still believe boat design can make your motor cool (or not cool) at either height, so no reason to change it.

I think you are probably most upset that we didn't speak up more when a new motor was being voted into 20ssH. Frankly, I did not think that we were going to need to present a case for that. Who would have guessed that folks would have voted a new motor into one of Stock Outboard's most popular and affordable classes?!?!? ....a class that has plenty of new motors readily available (Y302) and parts available for the old motor (Y80). There is great parity between the two Yamatos and we have actually seen our region gain new members in the 20ssH and CSH class because of "cheap" Yamato engines. Unfortunately, we guessed wrong.

Hope to see you in Detroit,
Mike

[Matt Dagostino]

Cooling

Happy New Year Matt!

I understand your frustration over the 20ssH height and how we were against changing it to 3/4" below the bottom. I still believe boat design can make your motor cool (or not cool) at either height, so no reason to change it.
Mike

Hi Mike
The issue is more than cooling. I have no problem at 1/2"............

See you in Detroit....

Matt