SO class reduction proposal, next steps

[csh12M]

I would like to share a few facts about the current BSR class as we know it today. I have raced ASR, BSR AMR and FAR for many years and have built almost every engine I have ever raced. The idea of putting the 20 CI Sidewinder in with the current Hot Rod 15 CI and Sidewinder 15 CI engines and calling it BSR will not work.

1. In 2010 the average speed of a 15CI Hot Rod BSR was 55.5 MPH (GPS) +1 MPH or - 1 MPH. (Thru the years a few VERY rare 58.0 MPH engines existed)
2. In 2009 the 15CI Sidewinder rig of Greg Lyons at the nationals appeared to be running on the higher end of the 55.5 MPH average.
3. At the 2010 winter national, Bobby Austin with his 20 CI Sidewinder rig could almost run with the fastest 25SSR rigs with a very close estimated speed in the 61.0 MPH range. A nationals level unrestricted Mercury 25ssr will run 62-63 MPH (GPS).

This information alone shows we have somewhere in range of a 4.5MPH to 6.5MPH speed difference between the current Hot Rod 15 CI and the current 20 CI Sidewinder motor. The idea that a few tweeks on both of these engines would bring some kind of parity is not very realistic. Dave Little (manufacturer) designed the newest 15 CI Hot Rod cylinder head to be run at 13 cc. Anything less and the engine suffers in reliability. The leader of the Hot Rod tech committee strongly urges us to not lower the combustion chamber volume below 13 cc for the 15 CI Hot Rod. Lowering it (in the runabout) has been tested and proven to only help in acceleration with little or NO gain in top speed. I know, I tested it. We have NO data to date to have any idea if raising the combustion chamber volume will have any or no affect on the 20 CI engine. For all we know, if it truly runs hot, it may go faster.
Being an engine builder myself and having talked to other accomplished engine builders, the current BSR engines (Hot Rod 15 and Sidewinder 15) will not likely ever be able to run even close to the same top speeds as the 20 CI Sidewinders. It would be better to eliminate both current BSR engines, then to disgrace them by making them run against the new 20CI Sidewinder.

As a region 7 elected commissioner I feel all SO members and voters, should be aware of the facts for each issue enabling them to make informed decisions.

Jeff Scheffler 61-W
Region 7 Commissioner

Jeff I agree with just about everything you have written. The only disagreement, I know from racing them for ten years that a Hot Rod can run effectively at 12CC. I do believe that makes 58 a reality and 59 a possibility for the Hot Rod. I have talked extensively with Nuchi. and he has seen 61+ with the Sidewinder. I believe that we will have to add at least 1 CC the 20Sidewinder for the Hydro and the Runabout. I think this would put both motors in the "ballpark". However, I do concede that the Sidewinder would most likely be the motor of choice in BSR within 1-2 years. Is that a bad thing?

One additional fact left out in your review of the current BSR class and BSH for that matter is... The currently raced Hot Rod has been out of production for over 20 years and you can not buy a new crankshaft for the motor! It has absolutely no hope for sustained new growth. I do not believe we should keep supporting classes that have no long term future. I know this would potentially upset the current Hot Rod racers. I would also expect that you Cooper and Darrell and probably Davey will bolt on horns and run 250CCR. However, I think the class will recover it losses in 1-3 years and have a long term viable future for "new names". Ed Hearn pulling out the "special" motor (you reference) twice a year to whoop the field does not attract anyone. I would love to race BSR again. Richard has been working on Doug and I, but not until I can go out and "buy" a motor that is on an even playing field. It is time we put some of the STOCK back into SO. Testing props, boats and motors is one thing, scrounging the earth to put together a "special" Hot Rod is just not attractive. APBA already has a category for that, MOD.

Thanks for your input and clarifications.
Dean
12M

[Graham 18ce]

Stock? i don't know many that are stock classes? We buy everything and tear it down and machine everything. sounds like mod to me.
Granted, the SW A seems to be pretty in line out of the box, just what was order a number of years ago. now talks are to slow them down, which wll likely force guys to take these fresh new motors apart and find more power, just another mod class without the fancy pipe.
We do it to our selves time after time rather than hold true to the rule book and re-write the rule in the spirit of the original, we modify it to suit the guys playing with the grinder, the epoxy, or what ever method said people find to make there stuff faster then everyone else.
Stock will not be stock until we go to a sealed class, SW isn't too far in yet, it still possible to seal these, i'd gladly send my back to be sealed if that route was chosen.
my cent and a half.

[reed28n]

I agree

Something needs to change. The issue to me is making the category a bunch of parity committees with out enough data to parity anything.

Our best parity approach so far has been to leave it alone until someone really *****es about not being able to keep up. We just do not have the resources to allow multiple motors to run under one class without making changes through out the year.

These changes once the racing season starts are more damaging than we can measure.

APBA can not even tell you how many people will be effected by these proposed changes. We just don't have good stats.

I would limit any combination to two motors or motor choices per class. All at the same height rule and ideally the same weights (this may be more difficult). And this should be done with the intent to allow the newest most available motor to be the class of the field. That means the 302 in C, the Tohatsu in D and the Sidewinder in A.

Our group does not have the resources to parity motors.

PS - I do not support adding anything to the CSH class. It is the most successful class in our category it requires no attention at this time.

25 is nt our biggest issue, the AXS, AS, 15SS(B), FA, AM duplicity is our biggest issue and occuppies the most water time.

[BP125V]

I have to respectfully disagree

Very nice Howard. It is to bad so many folks look out for themselves and there little piece of the pie instead of the sport as a whole. Blinders are only good for horse racing and not boat racing.

Mike,

I have to disagree with your comments here in that when I go to my boat club meeting and I look around the room at who would be able to afford to buy a SW for their class if their current equipment is obsoleted - I guarantee that it is a fraction of those who are currently racing. If I come across as wanting to protect current equipment it is not because I have blinders on or am trying to protect my trailer box, it is because I am trying to keep my club intact!

Thanks for all of your work with HR.net Mike, I do appreciate it.

[csh12M]

Stock? i don't know many that are stock classes? We buy everything and tear it down and machine everything. sounds like mod to me.
Granted, the SW A seems to be pretty in line out of the box, just what was order a number of years ago. now talks are to slow them down, which wll likely force guys to take these fresh new motors apart and find more power, just another mod class without the fancy pipe.
We do it to our selves time after time rather than hold true to the rule book and re-write the rule in the spirit of the original, we modify it to suit the guys playing with the grinder, the epoxy, or what ever method said people find to make there stuff faster then everyone else.
Stock will not be stock until we go to a sealed class, SW isn't too far in yet, it still possible to seal these, i'd gladly send my back to be sealed if that route was chosen.
my cent and a half.

Agreed! BTW From your post the other day you reference potentially buying a second Sidewinder in the future? You indicated a B and I assumed you meant the 15CI Sidewinder, but then you reference racing it with the Mercury 20H where a 20CI Hot Rod is legal. Were you actually contemplating a 20Sidewinder then? Just curious?

Thanks,
Dean

[csh12M]

Yes it wil be hard...

Something needs to change. The issue to me is making the category a bunch of parity committees with out enough data to parity anything.

Our best parity approach so far has been to leave it alone until someone really *****es about not being able to keep up. We just do not have the resources to allow multiple motors to run under one class without making changes through out the year.

These changes once the racing season starts are more damaging than we can measure.

APBA can not even tell you how many people will be effected by these proposed changes. We just don't have good stats.

I would limit any combination to two motors or motor choices per class. All at the same height rule and ideally the same weights (this may be more difficult). And this should be done with the intent to allow the newest most available motor to be the class of the field. That means the 302 in C, the Tohatsu in D and the Sidewinder in A.

Our group does not have the resources to parity motors.

PS - I do not support adding anything to the CSH class. It is the most successful class in our category it requires no attention at this time.

25 is nt our biggest issue, the AXS, AS, 15SS(B), FA, AM duplicity is our biggest issue and occuppies the most water time.

Agreed that parity will be difficult, but do you see any other option? Additionally I disagree, I think the 25 class is a hindrance in the runabout. It goes the same speed as CSR, and allows racers to completely skip the BSR class. As Jeff Sheffler points out if this proposal would succeed by the membership Sidewinder would have a "real" chance to be the dominant motor in BSR quickly and without being diluted by racers choosing 25SSR (C2R).

It is all tied together and predicated on sustained long term growth of classes and SO.

Thanks,
12M

[csh12M]

Mike,

I have to disagree with your comments here in that when I go to my boat club meeting and I look around the room at who would be able to afford to buy a SW for their class if their current equipment is obsoleted - I guarantee that it is a fraction of those who are currently racing. If I come across as wanting to protect current equipment it is not because I have blinders on or am trying to protect my trailer box, it is because I am trying to keep my club intact!

Thanks for all of your work with HR.net Mike, I do appreciate it.

Bill run 250CCR. Now they all still have a place to race and your club runs MODS. Maybe after a few years of growth in BSR class and its becomes National again they save and buy one.

Can I guarantee that will happen, no, but I think the chances of that happening vrs. BSR and BSH growing under the current structure is less likely.

I think one of the bigger mistakes I made with Doug Welling (MHRA new name racer school racer) was getting him into BSH. He couldn't race at 2 of our races because of 3 boats. I should of gotten him into 20SSH, same speed, same size driver (he is 160lbs) and cheaper.

Thanks for the input,
Dean
12M

[Graham 18ce]

I'm contemplating a 15, either a SW or a hotrod in the future. Yes it would run against Merc 20H's, there are a couple of faster guys up here so it might not win but in runabout, which is more what i'm looking at, the fast guys aren't there, I'd imagine a good 15 would be able to keep up or beat the average 20H based on current speeds.
Hydro, ya, we have three fast Merc's one is in my trailer, there is a 20 HR, but it doesn't run it unless his Merc is down.
Planning on trying the HR this summer, i'll see where it fits in Runabout and go from there. Wakefield is coming, be nice to have a second run.

[Howie Nichols]

Dean,
Respectfully we need to stop saying go to Mod (25xs and SW15) There are alot of places that can not run open pipe classes therefore they do not schedule any Mods period. I believe Region 1 has a few place like that and I know that Region 5 does so it is still like telling the drivers in those classes they can't run. We have tried all motors with pipes need silencers and that is just as big of an issue.

I truly think we can make this work somehow, but the details ....

[reed28n]

Actually I do or did, but it failed

Agreed that parity will be difficult, but do you see any other option? Additionally I disagree, I think the 25 class is a hindrance in the runabout. It goes the same speed as CSR, and allows racers to completely skip the BSR class. As Jeff Sheffler points out if this proposal would succeed by the membership Sidewinder would have a "real" chance to be the dominant motor in BSR quickly and without being diluted by racers choosing 25SSR (C2R).

It is all tied together and predicated on sustained long term growth of classes and SO.

Thanks,
12M

Our goal was to remove the restricted yamato's from the 25SSR class and we felt that if we were to lower the weight on the CSR by 15-25 lbs we would attract those drivers back CSR. No parity required.

That would leave the 25XS, Hot Rod 20 and Sidewinder 20 in the 25SSR no parity needed right away and it was a step class between A and C.

There has always been a perception that the weight change in C puts some drivers at a disadvantage because of their diet. Yet, these same drivers compete with no problem in 25SSR 20-50 lbs over weight. I placed 3rd or 4th at Grass lake 30 lbs over weight in 25SSR.

The real reason people like to have two classes with the same equipment is they like to get two races per day. For different family members or just double the fun.......

I would rather see it pared down to one class and allow more races or more heats per day. That would be even more cost effective for drivers one set up, no restrictor one prop.....

[carl]

class reduction

Let me reply on Deans behalf, nope it won't work! nope it won't work! Its my way or the highway!
Merry christmas
Carl

[Big Don]

I talked to Dean for an hour last night and I didn’t get that impression at all. He is passionate like all of us but I felt he was open to all suggestions and understands he does not have all the answers.

Is there any guarantee that this will work? No. But what will happen is if we don’t do something we will not be racing as we know it today in the near future.

[14J]

I talked to Dean for an hour last night and I didn’t get that impression at all. He is passionate like all of us but I felt he was open to all suggestions and understands he does not have all the answers.

Is there any guarantee that this will work? No. But what will happen is if we don’t do something we will not be racing as we know it today in the near future.

Exactly. The full Impact of any suggested change won't be known for a few years. What I do know is that we can't hope to improve the sport we all love by sitting idle.

[Smiley]

Three problems, equipment, competition, barrier to entry

I see three problem areas that are detrimental to promoting outboard racing. These observations are the observed from my previous six years of racing prior to 1963 and this last season (2010) racing with two grandchildren in JH, AXH and ASH and 7 years in national level model airplane competition.

EQUIPMENT

We purchased two turnkey setups with all equipment, tools, safety gear, props, trailer etc. ready to race. This has been a real accelerant to getting involved into the sport. It allowed more time to concentrate on training inexperienced drivers with all the necessary knowledge to drive safely.
I would guess we could be considered fortunate for this break. Setup, testing, etc. was at a minimum.

The delima facing me in the J and A classes is the motor situation. It may not be as difficult as in the next group of faster classes but the thought processes sorting out motor legality, competetive edge, etc. is very real and to an inexperienced or new entrant into the sport can be too confusing and I am sure many would be participants have just walked away.

In our particular case we plan to own all three motors, Omc, Merc and Sidewinder. Many newbys would find this possibility intolerable and select only one motor.

Here is something to consider:

ASH ASR Use the Sidewinder, allow the Merc and OMC BUT use the parady rules to equalize elapsed time with close decisions in performance etc. err in favor of the Sidewinder.

AXR AXH Use the Mercury, allow the OMC but use the parady rules to equalize elapsed time with close decisions in performance etc. err in favor of the Merc.

JH JR Use the Mercury and allow the OMC but use the parady rules to equalize elapsed time. If there is a slight favored margin of error; err in favor of the OMC.

In all the above situations let stand the decision for a number of years so that prop investment and testing can mature in each class and not be destructed with annual parady changes. That is a real cost that many persons will not stand for and some persons will pick up their toys and walk away.

JUSTIFICATION.

Newbys in the J class can spring for an innexpensive OMC and enjoy the learning curve without big initial costs for power. If they intend to continue forward; they can either initially or later spring for the Mercury. There will always be a market for OMCs in J racing in sufficient quantities for many years as the Sidewinders and Mercurys start to increase in number in the faster classes.

The AX classes Would eventually be raced with Mercurys through its product life cycle and eventually the costs will come down when there are more used motors in the market. As the OMCs diminish in number and Mercs age you can then cycle the OMCs out of AX and support them more accertively in the J class. The OMCs will disappear from the racing scene.

A life cycle gant chart could be used that initializes a phased out transition period covering several years where everyone knows the forward policy changes as it affects motor eligibility. Everyone will know when a motor is cycled to the next lower level and eventually not favored.

COMPETITION

There is a wide disparity in competition levels and skill capability.

The J class is great for young beginners and it is an excellent starter for youth. No change is necessary here.

AX classes is great for older youth and newbys starting out in racing. Again nothing needs to change here. There are some very experienced drivers in AX but they tend to be the smaller drivers that safely should not drive the C and D classes.

A Classes is very cometitive and there are many drivers that really never achieve the equipment and driver abilities to get to the front of the pack. After a season of 5th, 6th and 7th place finishes they walk away leaving the front runners to come back. You wonder why the sport is declining?

Lack of success, high equipment cost with constant threat of annual obsolescence necessitating equipment and configuration changes further increasing costs, difficulties with fuel requirements, and more.

In model airplane competition we have broken down events in speed and precision aerobatics as follows:

Speed events broken down by displacement, plane configuration, and also expert and novice racing classes.

Precision aerobatics are broken down by era class of plane, Old Time, Classic, and Modern. Additionally and more importantly in the modern class we have skill level classes which are: Beginner, Intermediate, Advanced, and Expert. The Beginners and Intermediate competitors are judged by the same judges in the same circles. (Control line). The advanced and Expert flyers are also judged by the same judges in the same circle. You are competing side by side with your peers, judged by the same judges but awarded according to your placement within your skill level class. This one change in precision controline aerobatics has significantly improved our participation, growth and personal enjoyment in the sport.

How this concept can be translated to boat racing is not considered herein but the concept of recognizing beginner, intermediate and advanced racers is important, (I think) to the retention and building up of the sport. A further discussion of this concept should be considered in another thread and may be fruitful for the furtherance of the sport.

BARRIER TO ENTRY.

Confusion, multiple equipment choices, lack of regular training opportunities and materials, lack of achievable accomplishments and recognition for improvement and success goals other than first place. Lack of support and recognition for less experienced drivers.

All the above factors and more all contribute to the declining competitor base of outboard boat racing. Unless and until we can recognize this and change the way we relate and encourage newbys into the sport; it will continue to decline.

Bob Smiley
Region 10

[Raymond]

These last few posts from Big Don and 14J are spot on. On the contrary I don’t see Dean’s proposal and supporting discussions as closed minded like Carl does. I see Dean’s line of thinking as a proactive expression of his true concern for the future of Stock Outboard Racing.

To speak analogously; once one starts to slip, the fall is most likely to occur. Question is race fans, how far are we from that edge?

If my current reading of ‘A Century of Outboard Racing’ by Kevin Desmond leaves me with the correct impression, the wild fire growth of the hay day was fueled by the outboard OEM’s. Face it, we don’t have that kind of fuel behind us today so we would be wise to be as proactive, creative and flexible as we can.