2010 SO Agenda

[Kev43V]

I will go out on a limb here (heck im used to it)
they do not want 4 motors in it. They want THEIR motor in it

[thepiranhabros]

Huh?

I will go out on a limb here (heck im used to it)
they do not want 4 motors in it. They want THEIR motor in it

Aren't "they" "us"? This is borderline nonsense (no joke).

I really don't like to make this comparison, but NASCAR runs Ford, Chevy, Dodge, and Toyota. So someone please tell me why it matters so much that there would be a SO class four engines? If they all have been proven to run competitively with each other, what's the big deal? Seriously, I would like to know because I cannot come up with a good reason to toss out perfectly viable engine options.

I've said it before, and I will say it again. Let the engines die of their own free will, or when the owner can bear to open the checkbook to buy the latest and greatest.

Michael Mackey
21-V

[DiGia54D]

Another would be the Street bike circuit. Ducati, Honda, Kawasaki,suzuki and Yamaha all are on the track at the same time.

[14J]

Let the engines die of their own free will, 21-V

This is another good topic and worthy of conversation. Keep the old and introduce the new. The new will take hold and the old will, well go away in time.

Doesn't happen. They stay alive because we continue to approve aftermarket band aids and in the end you still have 3 motor choices and a mess on your hands trying to manage parity.

[14J]

Another would be the Street bike circuit. Ducati, Honda, Kawasaki,suzuki and Yamaha all are on the track at the same time.

I'm not a motor expert nor a gear head but let me ask this question. Are we really comparing apples to apples when we talk about nascar or moto X brands in relation to our sport? Isn't a 250cc motorcycle engine regardless of brand closer in pedigree than what is being mixed and matched in our sport? I suppose if I pulled (2) 15ci fishing motors off the shelf the argument may apply but a yamato 302 vs. a sidewinder 20ci vs. a yamato 80? They're all different animals but like I said I know nothing of what’s on the transom.

[Kev43V]

Mike I believe the people that have pointed out the differences in power curves ect. that lead to having to have a good motor of every flavor. That you then have to know which one to to run depending on the course. and you also then have to find the right prop for that motor on that size course. not to mention the changes in boats to best utilize the advantage of that motor. All of this leading to having multiple GOOD motors, props and last but not least boats for one class. Of course this is all relative to weither you really want to be truely competitive in the class, or just go race boats with your buddys.

The THEY I refer to, are those of US that run that class AND have a good motor X that is legal in the class. but do not have a really good model Z for that class. The end result is you have to spend way more to be competitive points wise, the more motors are legal in the class.

I believe that is why so many people feel its ok to have multiple motors in a class but one should be clearly dominant. the others are fillers so nobody has to sit on the sideline just because so and so could not make it to the race that weekend. or the other side of that coin. no one is going to buy a motor for a class that does not run in their region. Yet when someone is willing to go out for boat time with their noncompetive(in that class) motor the class can and does run, so there is still potential for growth in that class

Now with all that said if I am all wet, someone please enlighten me

[thepiranhabros]

This is another good topic and worthy of conversation. Keep the old and introduce the new. The new will take hold and the old will, well go away in time.

Doesn't happen. They stay alive because we continue to approve aftermarket band aids and in the end you still have 3 motor choices and a mess on your hands trying to manage parity.

I hear what you're saying. My intent is not to pick a fight, but to truly understand and hopefully further this discussion in a productive way.

That said, it stands to reason (in my mind, anyway) that if we have tested, proven engines with a verified data set, that engine is the benchmark. If the existing engine runs within a consistent speed range, anything new coming along must be strictly designed to run within those parameters. Make it run slower, and the new engine will not take hold. Make it significantly faster (or with the potential to be made significantly faster), and you will succeed in killing old, yet viable engines more quickly and possibly price people right out of the sport.

This is a touchy subject, and as I said, it is not my intention to ruffle anybody's feathers. But there has to be a better way to bring new engines in without completely upsetting the infrastructure in the process.

Michael Mackey
21-V

[thepiranhabros]

Mike I believe the people that have pointed out the differences in power curves ect. that lead to having to have a good motor of every flavor. That you then have to know which one to to run depending on the course. and you also then have to find the right prop for that motor on that size course. not to mention the changes in boats to best utilize the advantage of that motor. All of this leading to having multiple GOOD motors, props and last but not least boats for one class. Of course this is all relative to weither you really want to be truely competitive in the class, or just go race boats with your buddys.

The THEY I refer to, are those of US that run that class AND have a good motor X that is legal in the class. but do not have a really good model Z for that class. The end result is you have to spend way more to be competitive points wise, the more motors are legal in the class.

I believe that is why so many people feel its ok to have multiple motors in a class but one should be clearly dominant. the others are fillers so nobody has to sit on the sideline just because so and so could not make it to the race that weekend. or the other side of that coin. no one is going to buy a motor for a class that does not run in their region. Yet when someone is willing to go out for boat time with their noncompetive(in that class) motor the class can and does run, so there is still potential for growth in that class

Now with all that said if I am all wet, someone please enlighten me

Kev:

I wasn't taking a shot at you with my "them" and "us" question. I'm sorry if it came off that way.

Believe me; I am all for new engines. But I don't see the logic in killing off a viable engine option simply to make way for the new stuff. Why throw the baby out with the bathwater?

When the new engine proves itself superior, it will become dominant by natural selection.

Michael Mackey
21-V

[Kev43V]

Mike I know you were not. but I believe the WHY is in the first part of my reply
I freely admit that a few years ago I too felt the more motors for any class could only be a good thing.
A zillion questions later my opinion has changed. Seeing a couple guys franticly changing motors at a race before their heat. then asking them what broke that night in the bar. Having them look at me like i was from mars. then being told nothing broke! it was so windy that they shortened the course. I didn't have a prayer with my X motor I had to run my Z motor. Because the Z motor makes allot more torque.
I didn't even have to go pour more coffee. the light bulb actually came on without it.

[pav225]

Nice one Troy

The Pavlicks are rubbing off on me

Troy, that cracked me up!


As far as 20ssH height going to 3/4", I have to agree with Dana. There is very good parity between the Y80s and Y302s today. For evidence just look at the recent Nationals results and 20ssH records. Why mess with a very successful formula?


- Mike

[propnuts]

Steering Committee LOL

John: I will not be appointing a Steering Committee this year. If you wish to address the SORC, of course we will make room for you.

OF COURSE there won't be a steering committee. Last time there was one (and I believe it may have been Ed's idea) they made all kinds of recommendations about weeding out old motors and moving forward. The 2 previous SORC's tried to follow the recomendations of that committee. The current SORC will be all about undoing the things that were done previously. Why do you think my recomendation for my replacement commisioner got blown off? How about because he was a member of that same steering commmittee. Nope, all the steering will be done based on where we are, not where we should try to get, no need for a pesky navigation system here.

[reed28n]

[QUOTE=14-H;148850]I agree that the technical rules in 25SSR (or whatever it is called in 2010) will need to be changed to accomodate the Sidewinder. The Merc and the Yamato are already faster than the Hot Rod in this class. If you recall, I opposed pulling the restrictor plate in the Merc and favored, instead, more restrictions on the Yamato so that the Hot Rod would not be left behind.

The Sidewinder is never going to go as fast as the 20 CID Hot Rod so there are going to have to be changes made to this class. However, the 20 CID Sidewinder is still relatively unknown and unproven as to its performance so, in my opinion, changes made now would be like shooting in the dark. Once the Sidewinder 20S becomes an known entity, I do think the SORC will need to make parity changes.
[QUOTE]

Will the 20 cube sidewinder not compete with the 20 Hot Rod based on your race at Milleville running two 15 cubic inch Hot Rod motors in the 25SSR class?

[csh2z]

Scott,
They were runnung 20 cu.in. Hot Rods and the Sidewinder was right in the mix. It was great racing (aside from Ed's 25XS) and good to see some real BSR's going at it head to head.

[Kev43V]

Would it cause hardship to the existing C-ish programs to do the following?
C: all of the existing motors that run in it- BUT configured such that the 302 dominates
25: merc25,102,302,SW20 here is a parity class for those that want that chalenge
20: existing motors plus SW20, goal to have SW20 dominate the class.
this would give every new motor a class to be clearly the motor of choice.
it would still allow for other motors to help make the field when needed. It still allows for people to run multiple classes with the same motor.
feed back very welcome

[Matt Dagostino]

Burnt up Motors!

As far as 20ssH height going to 3/4", I have to agree with Dana. There is very good parity between the Y80s and Y302s today. For evidence just look at the recent Nationals results and 20ssH records. Why mess with a very successful formula?
- Mike

The height reduction proposal is basically a follow up to the CSH height reduction done recently to prevent engines from winding up on TJ's and David's workbench with scortched pistons and blue rod's...........the 20ssh(or whatever it is now called) class will reep the same benefits the CSH drivers did. NO MORE BURNT UP MOTORS and drivers won't have to keep looking over their shoulders to see if their motor is still pumping water! Plus inspection will be easier since both classes will be at the same height!

Parity with the 302 may be a spinoff benefit from this as it was with the CSH height reduction, but that is not the primary 'agenda'. However, soon it will/should be!!