Questions on fuel testing

[jkimble12]

To all you seasoned veterans out there, I am new to the Mod catagory and have questions on fuel and fuel testing.

1. What types of tests are run on the fuel, and what are you testing for?

2. I have heard the numbers +50 and +25 thrown around at drivers meetings, what do the numbers mean?

3. Do most people have a fuel meter in their trailer to test fuel from their local service station so they know what their fuel reads?

4. Are the majority of racers out thier running premium pump gas or using specialty race fuels like Torco and VP?

Any help awnsering these questions would be a great help. Thanks in advance!


Josh Kimble

[sam]

To all you seasoned veterans out there, I am new to the Mod catagory and have questions on fuel and fuel testing.

1. What types of tests are run on the fuel, and what are you testing for?

The test is a conductivity test to detect possible oxygen bearing chemicals, alcohols, nitromethane and so forth

2. I have heard the numbers +50 and +25 thrown around at drivers meetings, what do the numbers mean?

as far as I know the numbers are arbitrary, just showing how much conductivity there is

3. Do most people have a fuel meter in their trailer to test fuel from their local service station so they know what their fuel reads?

No, at $500 or so I don't know of any racers that own their own tester (there are probably some, but I wouldn't know who) everyone is welcome to take a sample of their gas to inspection and use the race committee's tester provided by the club before a race to know for certain their gas is OK for that day.

4. Are the majority of racers out thier running premium pump gas or using specialty race fuels like Torco and VP?

No again. Most racers are using regular. Most of the Stock motors are low compression and restricted to stay that way as are some of the Mod classes. Only a few of the Mod classes allow alterations that can take advantage of racing gas and many or most racers simply use AV gas from their local air port. You have to look at each class's rules to see if the motor will benefit from gas other than what is sold at the closest car filler-up-place.

One of my 850 motors needs AV gas and the other runs fine on premium

[jkimble12]

Thanks for all the info Sam.

Since the conductivity test checks for additives like nitro and alcohols, and nowadays it seams that 95% of all readily avaliable fuel contains ethanol, which I'm guessing whould greatly ascuse the tests, what is a person to do that does not have access to AV gas? Also, would the addition of alcohol to gasoline in a gas buring two-stroke not hurt the performace of it in a negative way due to the combustability diffrence of the two?


Josh Kimble

[sam]

Alcohol is an advantage in the motor if the carburator can be adjusted to compensate for it, that is why it is not allowed under the normal rules.

For now we have the "fuel of the day" rule that applies to races other than Nationals and Divisionals (which are essentially qualifying heats for the Nationals). For the most part you don't have to worry about the 10% alcohol gas yet (10% will qualify under the fuel of the day rule if it is all that is available locally), but with more and more of the country coming under the EPA requirement for 10% alcohol, the rules will need to be changed.

AV gas is available almost everywhere. Give me your zip code and I can tell you where the nearest airport is and what the price for AV gas is there.

Hendricks County Gordon Graham Field, INDIANAPOLIS, IN $4.65/gallon

[RichardKCMo]

Prices pretty close!!!

Wow i didn't know AV gas was so close in price to pump gas, sounds like the way to go.
Richard

[TONY TRUJILLO r11]

Good Luck !

Hey Josh You Should Always Get A Courtesy Fuel Check From Your Race Tech. Person Just To Be Safe. Even If They Say The Fuel Station On The Corner Is The Fuel Of The Day The Officials Might Have Bought Their Fuel On Thursday And If The Fuel Station Gets A Delivery Friday Morning And You Buy Your Fuel On Friday Afternoon The Fuel Could Change , I Have Been Working With Fuel From Go-karts To Blown Fuel Boats And I Am Still Learning New Stuff All The Time,we Were Having A Problem On The West Coast With The Fuel Of The Day So I Was Talking With A Friend From A Major Oil Co. And He Told Me About How They Blend Their Fuels Sometimes You May Get Prem. Fuel When You Think You Are Buying Reg. Fuel They Give Higher Octane Away A Lot If They Run Out Of That Certain Grade At The Plant Even While Blending The Fuel They Must Meet A Certain Number While Blending They Can Use Higher Grade Stuff To Make The Difference And Meet Their Numbers With The Lower But They Cannot Use Lower Grade To Make Up The Difference With The Higher Grade ,so Just Because The Pump Says 87 Octane It May Be Higher Also The Oil Companys Share Fuel Quite Often If Chevron Runs Out They May Go To Shell And Pick Up Their Load For Delivery To The Station , It Gets To Confusing To Me Sometimes . In California Fuel Is Always Changing And Make Sure Using Av Gas Is Legal In Your Class . Good Luck In Your Fuel Search

[sam]

AV gas is legal in all APBA Mod classes.

[RandY Aveline]

Sam
would it be legal in Stock classes as well ?

another question i have is how will 10% alcohol affect carburetors/fuel pumps?

what changes are needed to make fuel pumps and carburetors work with the 10% mixed fuel ?

question on fuel of the day

For now we have the "fuel of the day" rule that applies to races other than Nationals and Divisionals (which are essentially qualifying heats for the Nationals).

so if fuel of the day contains 10 % alcohol and is approved for qualification heats and club races ? But it is not ok for finals ???????

i get the impression what you are saying is it is legal for qualifications but not legal for national and divisional final heats.
Then the guys using it for qualifications are ok but the guys using it for finals are not?

i would think we have to either approve it or not approve it for all heats club events and national events!

It would seem its ok to get in finals with but not ok to win finals with ??

this i find confusing, and feel it should be good for all or not good for any

lets see unfair advantage to get qualified and not unfair advantage to get title with??

not sure maybe i am interpreting this incorrectly.

please advise

Thanks
Randy

[Bill Huson]

Sam & other's may have details . . .

Sam
would it be legal in Stock classes as well ?

another question i have is how will 10% alcohol affect carburetors/fuel pumps?

what changes are needed to make fuel pumps and carburetors work with the 10% mixed fuel ?

please advise

Thanks
Randy

But I do know that alcohol (Methanol or Ethanol) burn at a higher fuel/air rate than gas. I seem to recall around 16:1 for gas and 9:1 for alky. Cars that burn E-20 get slightly less gas mileage than when they run on straight gas. The reason why I think the latest Ethanol push by the feds is nuts.

So my guess would be you'd need to jet a bit richer for 10% joy juice fuel. Hopefully the seals and such in the fuel pump and carb are alcohol resistant.

[Kev43V]

I would be alot more for ethenol if it were not being made from corn. there are many more effecient sources for ethenol. Switchgrass is full of hydrocarbons and 1 unit of energy used in the conversion proccess produces 14 units of energy. add that to not having to replant the crop every year.(cut the grass once per year and it regrows the next.
the corn conversion on the other hand takes 1 unit to produce 1.3 units of energy

[RandY Aveline]

yes this fuel subject is a can of worms for sure!

i know we are going to be forced to make a decision sooner or later

as finding legal fuel is getting harder all the time!

i guess the av gas will be the only safe way for sure and can be found in any town with an airport but i am all for cheaper fuel not more expensive as my truck fuel is costly enough LOLOL

1 thing about av gas is the higher octane , i was under the impression that our lower compression 2 cycle engines liked lower octane (I Could be wrong)
on this after all i am by trade a carpenter not a fueling engineer

so will higher octane affect our engines adversely ?

well just some more food for thought

[B Walker]

copied from howstuffworks.com:

With a gasoline engine, the higher the octane rating, the higher the compression ratio can be before you get pre-ignition, or ignition of the fuel before the spark plug fires.
Most high compression, high performance engines use the highest octane gasoline available.

The higher the compression ratio, the higher the octane rating should be, at least for gasoline engines.

For a regular gasoline engine, an octane rating of 80%-85% is considered satisfactory, however if you want to pay more for your gas without getting any compensation for it, you can buy and use high octane gasolines in a regular engine. In other words, you can use a high octane fuel in a regular engine, but there is no reason to use it, and it is just a waste of cash.

E85 ethanol fuel has a higher octane rating than a standard fuel pump gasoline, however it contains 30% less energy than regular gasoline, and will decrease your mileage by approximately 30% when compared to using regular 100% gasoline.

An E85 rated engine just signifies that the engine is satisfactory for the use of an 85% ethanol fuel.
The engine is actually designed for 100% gasoline, but is modified so that it can be used for any combination of an ethanol (10%, 15%, 50% etc. up to 85% max)/gasoline mix.

It takes 4 gallons of 100% ethanol to produce the same mileage and energy as 3 gallons of regular gasoline.
Think of that every time you buy ethanol gas and compare the price to the price of regular gas.

Applied to 2 cycle outboards used in the Stock Outboard category I have always been told there is not high enough head compression to see any difference in performance using higher octane fuels.

Other forms of motorsports require participants to either pay a fuel charge or donate a set amount of fuel at registration and require all participants to use a communal fuel tank for racing.

BW

[blueskyracer]

copied from howstuffworks.com:



Applied to 2 cycle outboards used in the Stock Outboard category I have always been told there is not high enough head compression to see any difference in performance using higher octane fuels.

Other forms of motorsports require participants to either pay a fuel charge or donate a set amount of fuel at registration and require all participants to use a communal fuel tank for racing.

BW

I think the fuel of the day is the way to go. You go to the local gas station that was picked for the race and fill up. Make sure you get a receipt and go racing. WOULD YOU LIKE TO BE IN CHARGE OF HAULING A TANK OF FUEL FROM RACE TO RACE THAT EVERYONE COULD USE! lol

[Norm Schaub]

Randy...
The "fuel of the day" rule can not be applied for any qualifing or final heats for the Divisionals and Nationals.
Norm

[Dave M]

Josh

Now that you are one of us "dam gas burners" part time I would highly suggest you purchase a barrel of VP or some other brand of race fuesl with no additives. There is no worse feeling than getting to a race thinking you are good to go because your local gas station always 'had' legal fuel. And losing the Nat's because it was not legal... no additives, no power advantage, just a simple pump gas of 93 octane. Sucks the big one. So, NEVER let it happen to you, take the iniative and purchase legal fuel from VP or some other brand if you know of one, and bring your own legal fuel.

Josh, on second thought, keep getting the other fuel, don't need you getting the speed secrets just yet.. Kringle and Hunter say hey. .