850CCMH/850CCMR Drivers Only

[Tim Kurcz]

Please remember this is supposed to be the premier class in Mod. Racers are drawn to this class precisely because of its unlimited nature - we love the speed and power!!! For those very reasons it is one of the most popular classes (if not the most popular) in APBA, NBRA, and AOF.

Consider the risk in your attempts to slow the class down by adding rules, or worse, creating a "stock-like" FEXS. First, such a class would greatly increase the duties of volunteer inspectors who would be called upon to pull your head, exhaust, and intake at every event to make certain your FEXS is stock. Then consider the engine changes between classes!

Secondly, some will consider alternatives like the unlimited X-class SLT. This is a bore and stroke <1000cc Mod class in the 80 MPH range. You can take any 850/FE/SE mod powerhead (even a Mod-50 or 56 six-pack), put it under a cowl on a shiftable gearcase with internal exhaust, and go have fun! The only limitations are no nitrous, turbos, blowers, or alky. Now that's unlimited!

If you really don't don't like current 850 rules, write a legitimate proposal and submit it to the committee as per the legal APBA process, it will be considered next year. If you don't like the process, perhaps you should consider another less formidable Mod class. Or, if you really like rules and "inexpensive" racing, you should go run Stock.

Whichever path you choose, please stop these back door attempts to change rules just because you don't want to invest. If you spent half as much time on your engines as you do whining on HR and BRF, you'd be much more competitive. Which reminds me; I'm late for the shop. Got to finish up another nationals quality 850 - just in time for the 2010 season!

Tim

[Dave M]

Tim

Please remember this is supposed to be the premier class in Mod. Racers are drawn to this class precisely because of its unlimited nature - we love the speed and power!!! For those very reasons it is one of the most popular classes (if not the most popular) in APBA, NBRA, and AOF.

Consider the risk in your attempts to slow the class down by adding rules, or worse, creating a "stock-like" FEXS. First, such a class would greatly increase the duties of volunteer inspectors who would be called upon to pull your head, exhaust, and intake at every event to make certain your FEXS is stock. Then consider the engine changes between classes!

Secondly, some will consider alternatives like the unlimited X-class SLT. This is a bore and stroke <1000cc Mod class in the 80 MPH range. You can take any 850/FE/SE mod powerhead (even a Mod-50 or 56 six-pack), put it under a cowl on a shiftable gearcase with internal exhaust, and go have fun! The only limitations are no nitrous, turbos, blowers, or alky. Now that's unlimited!

If you really don't don't like current 850 rules, write a legitimate proposal and submit it to the committee as per the legal APBA process, it will be considered next year. If you don't like the process, perhaps you should consider another less formidable Mod class. Or, if you really like rules and "inexpensive" racing, you should go run Stock.

Whichever path you choose, please stop these back door attempts to change rules just because you don't want to invest. If you spent half as much time on your engines as you do whining on HR and BRF, you'd be much more competitive. Which reminds me; I'm late for the shop. Got to finish up another nationals quality 850 - just in time for the 2010 season!

Tim

Tim,
While I appreciate your efforts to belittle me, I don't consider polling the DRIVERS of the 850CC Mod class whining and complaining. I am trying to do exactly as you are saying, following a process. I started early so I could gather as much information as possible from as many drivers of the class as possible; in order to make the right proposal. How is this whining and complaining ? Finding out what the drivers of the class want, not some hobbyist with a mill and a passion for outboards wants.

Once this data is collected if it favors a rule change, a proposal can be made for next years meeting. If data supports that no change is wanted and your expensive front cover is legal, than so be it.

I won't drag a skeleton out. But I can say that is influencing my decisions about your motives. I have tried to not let it, but your last comments changed my mind.

You belong in pro where you can do anything, cost is not an object. Why don't you go over there ? In my opinion that category fits you perfect. With your claimed knowledge of how to make two strokes run real fast, can you imagine what you might accomplish with out any limitations per say ? If you are seeking a legacy you might want consider changing things up a bit.

There, now that all the name calling is out of the way, what do you say ? I see you voted on the polls, which was not intended I am sure, as it was set up for only drivers to vote on. I know you used to race. I have not seen you at a race to race in a number of years, just as a spectator and testing on Friday's. Correct me if I am wrong.

I appreciate what you are doing with engines, you obviously have some knowledge.

And maybe my dad is right, our days are done. It is no longer about racing each other, it is about racing pocketbooks. I don't plan to step up to your challenge of shut up and invest. Tell you what; let me know how much you will charge me to make me a front cover with all the special mods. If it is reasonable, I just might invest. If not, I will go play someplace else. I hear Jet Skis have brakes on them now, and I can race a 1000CC job for well under 10K. Feel free to post the price on here, or send me an email, or a Private message. I look forward to your quote.

[garland powell]

money

I thank Dave is right it cost way to much thease days to run and if you dont thank so than were are all the boats at. I my self hafta bring 2 hydros and 2 runaboats for me and my brother to make a class when only one of us wants to race that class. How do we get somebudy new into a good 850 mod when thay gota pay 10k to be up front and not win anything? looks like were all going to be racing stock soon.If we put a semi stock 3hole on and ran 85mph it would still be fun and for all other that have 10k to go 95-100 mph go pro

[drew79c]

G man I was hurt last year n couldnt race. There will be 2 runabouts from our camp Allen will race if needed to Who the hell is spending 10 k Thats crazy. I got into the class 2 years ago w 2 Boats, a decent block, and a great foot for substantially less. Next thing is the more you carve on a motor the more tempermental it is, meaning you are fast, when its running right.

[sam]

Tim, may I ask when was the last time you entered a 850 hydro race?

[form-e one]

i disagree with david that most expensive to build,,, when i was running d-mods to build one merc with new pipes to set records was very close to the cost of the rude,,,, but merc needed special tools also to put pistons in sooo.... if we where to use a speed gun to actually see what the rudes are running for speeds i bet everyone would be surprised,,,,, with todays short courses i bet we might se about 90 mph as forthe cost of machineing blocks that just the cost of labor,,,that is something we cant do anything about,,,,when i set the record (12 years ago) my motor was stock except for boysen reeds and raiseing the exhaust ports, stock reed cages ,,, as we all do sooooo doesnt take alot of money to go over 100mph,,,,, it takes brains,,,, and set up simple,,,,hec dave send me your power head and i bet i could put on my set up and see 100mph,,,, or maybe better mmmmmm.....as for more rules in the class that why i got into v-rude because there is NOt rules,,, if more rules to be put on motor i would prob quite raceing .. that just me i guess since i dont have the bucks to pro race..

[ram95]

What's the point of the proposed mod? Develop more power? Great! So now you go out there and blow the field away, for a while at least. At least until everyone else does the same mod. Then it will come down to boats and props. In the meantime, my guess is that a fair number will just quietly bow out a few years ahead of schedule.

As for creating yet another class.....huh..... of three boat heats?? Right now, on the East coast it's hard to find a race with 3 real FE's. What a disaster in the making. I run a Tohatsu in D and FE so I probably don't rate when it comes to real 850MH's, other than helping to fill a field of boats for a race. To me tho, these kinds of rules need to go out to all the 850 drivers to vote on.

And, lastly, lest I be called a puss, I think we 'open cockpit' kneelers and laydowners need to consider the upper end of the speed envelope we can put ourselves into without seeing a marked increase in serious injuries. Let's keep what we've got. It aint broke so let's not be constantly ------- with it.

Alex

[Bob Dunlap]

no shortage of parts

Dave I am sure you can make anything anybody else can.
Is Palquist running one of these fronts on the FE?
Brad I don't think we will have a shortage of parts for any Mod motors except the Hot Rod. You can find the 3 cyl OMC and Mercs by truck load at most marinas for about $50 for a old powerhead.
Heck I have been telling people how cheap it is to run the 44 Mercs, if you can do all your own work or have a friend to help.
Now HotRods I spent more on them than I even want to think about.
We for sure don't need to create another class.

[sam]

Alex, this is not a change to allow the mod, the current rules allow it and have for some time.

As yet no one has raced one, but Cheney has shown construction ... and it is clearly legal under current rules. The only reason Sled isn't doing it is ... his mods are already out front. If Miss Vickie sends a check you could see it at the Nationals on more than one boat.


J once competed at about 30-35 mph for safety; now starts kids out almost 10 mph faster

Should all classes continually spiral to constantly higher speeds?

The suggestion about FEXS was sarcasm, not serious ...

I believe that a faster completely unrestricted top mod class will kill itself

My personal feeling is that all boats in Mod and Stock are too small and too hard to handle and too smooth water runners. Our going to kilo type boats for competition is like baseball going to a smaller heavier ball. Certainly some players could hit a smaller heavier ball out of the park more often, but would it really help the sport?

Bigger boats would let the creative juices on the motor end keep flowing while encouraging more entries and allowing racing under more water conditions.

[Dave M]

Bob Dunlap

Bob,

If your questions was directed to me, I will answer. Yes, I can very easily do this, and I can also say this. The gray area is much larger than what anyone is currently doing. I can do this mod for around what Cheeny Street claims. Maybe less if I practice some more Heli-Arc welding. The point is, why ? Why make a class so dang expensive and intimindating to newbies that is dies a slow death ? Ram said it right, most of us will simply bow out early, and quietly. Then you will be left with the Tim Kurz Powered race, along with a couple others that are giving it a try and making a class. I truly don't want to see this happen. This sport is grass roots, lets keep it grass roots cost................... If you want to be a premier class, go run Pro, Capsules, or offshore.

Addressing if Palmquist is running a modified front cover, I don't know. I was not in Alabama. From his claims on the net, no he is not, he is running a stock engine with only a modified exhaust and a good prop and a good boat.

This Poll also exists over at BoatRacingFacts.com

[mike ross]

10 grand for a winning FEH rig is right on the money. I can attest to you first hand having worked on 2 FEH rigs that these are not the cheapest rigs to run. Here is a breakdown on costs if you want a winning rig. That is not to say you couldn't do it cheaper if you are like Dave and build your own boat. Or like Tim who can machine and massage your own super motor. A new Hemp hydro will run you 5000 or so after its rigged, painted, and ready to go. A powerhead from Tim or Sled will run you 3500 or so after all the mods and machining are completed. A lower unit will run 1000 to 1500 after its been massaged and ready to go 100mph. The tower housing you decide on will run you 600 to 1000 bucs. Props will run 400 to 1000 bucs. I like to have 2 in case one breaks or is banged up. I think I am over 10 grand. It looks to me like you need to call Vicky Smith and offer her 10 grand for her winning FEH that John Palmquist just won with in Alabama. And no the Smith rig does not have the beefed up front end. I did see a rig with the new style beefed up front end run last year at Hillsdale. It looked very impressive with Rich Welch behind the wheel. Maybe Rich Palmer can comment on what he has in his Reed Hull with Runne power as to what he has wrapped up in his rig, ready to go. What ever the cost this is a cool class. See Ya soon at a MOD race. Mikey

[Larry M]

What's the point of the proposed mod? Develop more power? Great! So now you go out there and blow the field away, for a while at least. At least until everyone else does the same mod. Then it will come down to boats and props. In the meantime, my guess is that a fair number will just quietly bow out a few years ahead of schedule.

As for creating yet another class.....huh..... of three boat heats?? Right now, on the East coast it's hard to find a race with 3 real FE's. What a disaster in the making. I run a Tohatsu in D and FE so I probably don't rate when it comes to real 850MH's, other than helping to fill a field of boats for a race. To me tho, these kinds of rules need to go out to all the 850 drivers to vote on.

And, lastly, lest I be called a puss, I think we 'open cockpit' kneelers and laydowners need to consider the upper end of the speed envelope we can put ourselves into without seeing a marked increase in serious injuries. Let's keep what we've got. It aint broke so let's not be constantly ------- with it.

Alex

Alex's post is right on the money. If you do something that cost a lot of money and puts you out front it won't be long before the rest of the people will do it and you all will be back in the same pecking order or they will quit the class. I get a kick about people say open it up no rules. I don't know of any racing that doesn't have rule from outlaw sprint cars to top fuel cars. Also I think the FE class is fast enough as it is.
Larry Mac

[form-e one]

dave and others,,,, nothing to personel,,,, but seems you guys wanting to stiffel peoples creativeness,,,,, witch mods founded on,,, with the tactics of spee, safety and money.... and declineing class size,,, first speeds 93 mph as i and palmquist and others can go,,,, i dont think is all that fast with our big boats,,,, if you gps yourselfs on all of our avg courses i bet we barely would hit 90mph.... safety... look at the accident reports,,,form-e next to nill unlike c stock,,,,,,, money well i deff relate tothat or cant weld,,,wellll as i have said before,,, i went over 100mph with stock reeds and front case,,, i did my homework.... if you remember mumps added to the engies in the old days i think about the same concern now as then,,, a fad ,,did help some get into the speed range they needed to compete but pritty much just a fad,,,, if people cant run 90 mph or beet d-mods with there form-e they need to do there home work.... declineing classes size ,,,hec come on,,, everyone knows times are tough,,, look at every class in raceing and i bet 90% of them have declined.... times are just tough and feeding ones self takes priority... i personally think killing peoples creativeness will kill the class more... we all knew the rules going in to the basically unlimited of the mods.....if a few people are finally hitting 100 mph (106mph 12 years ago)...and i do mean very very few i think that progression,,,,, but put us all on the small courses we all run these days and hope for 90mph...... just my 10 cents...

[hydroman6]

Any pictures to get an idea what everyone is tallking about?

[matt mutz]

fe question

do you get thrown out for having one [1] carb in fe class