NBRA Ethanol Challenge Series 2011

[bill van steenwyk]

problems w/E-10 are NOT insurmountable

For the naysayers on E-10 in Marine engines, Yes there can be some problems if regular maintenance is not performed. Yes, "phase separation" can occur, where the ethanol and gas will separate when left standing for a long time such as storage over the winter. Yes, ethanol is corrosive when left to sit in aluminum, rubber and neoprene environments for periods of time. THESE ARE ALL SOLVABLE PROBLEMS.

The answer is REGULAR AND PROPER MAINTENANCE!! Drain your fuel tanks when done racing!!
Run your engines on straight gas and oil like you are using now when done racing!! Do some of the same things the PRO's have done for YEARS when burning methanol instead of all the platitudes about how the world is coming to an end!!

If the "naysayers" had spent 1/10th the time working on a project like the NBRA folks have just brought to fruition, all boat racing would be better served.

Would I rather not have to burn gas with ethanol in it? YES. Is it going to happen with current EPA regulations and the ethanol lobby as powerful as it is at present? NO!
Learn to live with it or live without a lot of the recreation you now enjoy.

[Howie Nichols]

Meanwhile, plan on getting your rigs together and competing in this year's NBRA calendar, a calendar we hope to grow further with this Series arrangement.

Dan Crummett

NBRA President

O-66

So what races are on the NBRA Calendar for this year? Also is there a tech manual somewhere to look at to see how APBA classes cross over into the NBRA program?

Thanks

[dcrummett]

Their is one other person that deserves some credit and that is Jeff Ruth. He pushed hard to get something like this going,even when people were saying Jeff thats impossible. Well Jeff never lost faith he kept pushing the buttons. And now his so called pipe dream is about to come true. If only boat racing had more people like Vernon and Jeff. People with a vision and the will to get it done.
Art k

Jeff still has some plans up his sleeve, and is an avid fan of what has taken place with Vernon's contact. Jeff, indeed, pushed for increased recognition throughout his two terms as president, and in doing so, set the ball rolling for many good things for NBRA in the future.

Dan
NBRA President
O-66

[Dave M]

Great

This is GREAT news. Thanks Vernon, I still owe ya a cold one, and will deliver in TX, or KS. See ya at both.

It is good to know the sport of Mod/Stock outboard racing is in good hands and positioned for the growth model it deserves.

I can't wait to get the packet from Dan, as a commisioner I am really in support of it. After all, exposure is a key player in growing any kind of sport. All it takes is a person to want it bad enough and go get it. And by going and getting it, they go to places they are wanted......

[Haüenstein]

The NBRA-RFA announcement was the lead story in both major boating industry trade journals' newsletters today:

Racing series says ethanol is safe for marine engines

National Boat Racing Association promotes ethanol use

[ricochet112]

For the naysayers on E-10 in Marine engines, Yes there can be some problems if regular maintenance is not performed. Yes, "phase separation" can occur, where the ethanol and gas will separate when left standing for a long time such as storage over the winter. Yes, ethanol is corrosive when left to sit in aluminum, rubber and neoprene environments for periods of time. THESE ARE ALL SOLVABLE PROBLEMS.

The answer is REGULAR AND PROPER MAINTENANCE!! Drain your fuel tanks when done racing!!
Run your engines on straight gas and oil like you are using now when done racing!! Do some of the same things the PRO's have done for YEARS when burning methanol instead of all the platitudes about how the world is coming to an end!!

If the "naysayers" had spent 1/10th the time working on a project like the NBRA folks have just brought to fruition, all boat racing would be better served.

Would I rather not have to burn gas with ethanol in it? YES. Is it going to happen with current EPA regulations and the ethanol lobby as powerful as it is at present? NO!
Learn to live with it or live without a lot of the recreation you now enjoy.

I get "straight" gas so I don't have to deal with these issues.

I currently sell 3 different types of fuel stabilizer to combat this problem. Startron by Starbrite is a great product, I'm also hearing good things about Fuel Medic, CRC has been my shop stanby for over 25 years. The problem is with recreational and commercial boaters, not racers. Fuel inspection on the other hand...

I plan on doing a Digatron test with different stabilizers to see how they perform on the meter with "straight" gas.

Again, congrats on the sponsorship!

[ricochet112]

The NBRA-RFA announcement was the lead story in both major boating industry trade journals' newsletters today:

Racing series says ethanol is safe for marine engines

National Boat Racing Association promotes ethanol use

RFA is trying to falsify how damaging E10 is to recreational boating by this sponsorship. I know boat racing can use some good publicity, but sleeping with devil isn't the answer. Growing food for our cars isn't the answer.

From Trade Only...

Many groups in the recreational marine industry, including the National Marine Manufacturers Association, have said studies show ethanol can be damaging to marine engines. These groups are currently fighting the Environmental Protection Agency's recent approval of fuel with 15 percent ethanol for cars in model years 2001 or newer.

E10 Emissions
http://www.afdc.energy.gov/afdc/vehi...sions_e10.html

Combined Tailpipe and Evaporative Emissions
When both tailpipe and evaporative emissions are considered, Niven found that E10 showed increases in total hydrocarbon, non-methane organic species, and air toxic emissions, while substantially increasing the ozone forming potential relative to gasoline.

[Dave M]

Back On Track

RFA is trying to falsify how damaging E10 is to recreational boating by this sponsorship. I know boat racing can use some good publicity, but sleeping with devil isn't the answer. Growing food for our cars isn't the answer.

From Trade Only...

Many groups in the recreational marine industry, including the National Marine Manufacturers Association, have said studies show ethanol can be damaging to marine engines. These groups are currently fighting the Environmental Protection Agency's recent approval of fuel with 15 percent ethanol for cars in model years 2001 or newer.

E10 Emissions
http://www.afdc.energy.gov/afdc/vehi...sions_e10.html

Combined Tailpipe and Evaporative Emissions
When both tailpipe and evaporative emissions are considered, Niven found that E10 showed increases in total hydrocarbon, non-methane organic species, and air toxic emissions, while substantially increasing the ozone forming potential relative to gasoline.

Can we keep the thread on track ? It is not about a few folks beef with Ethonol in marine engines. It has been around for a long time now, so embrace it, change with the times or get left behind.
It is about the NBRA thinking outside the box, and making the tough changes to grow the sport of kneel down boat racing into the former glory days we all wish were back.

[blueskyracer]

Can we keep the thread on track ? It is not about a few folks beef with Ethonol in marine engines. It has been around for a long time now, so embrace it, change with the times or get left behind.
It is about the NBRA thinking outside the box, and making the tough changes to grow the sport of kneel down boat racing into the former glory days we all wish were back.

Thank you Dave. I tried earlier but..... I thought this topic was a real positive and should stay that way and should be followed by others. Way to go NBRA!!!

[kampenracing]

RFA Sponsorship

This is one of, if not the biggest things to ever happen to Stock and Mod boat racing. This sponsorship will allow us to put on more races of better quality in better venues. It will also pay alot of $$$$$ to the drivers with the points fund and additional prize and tow money for the races. It will also give us the national exposure that is so desperately needed for our sport. I know some people can't stay away from the negatives and will find them with everything positive that happens. Everyone should be extremely excited about what Vernon has accomplished with the RFA. Now lets not have any more negative comments on this thread!!!!!!

[Team B&H]

I think the NBRA rules here are workable to eliminate some of my issues with ethanol. If the fuel is based on a local fuel, I only have to buy it on the way to the race site. Hopefully, which specific station will be known beforehand so we can stop and get it on the way in. Whatever is not used at that race then can be dumped in my truck and burned on the way home so any worry about it absorbing moisture will be minimized. Sorry for you guys with diesel prime movers. And it is pretty easy to drain the fuel systems on our race motors or flush with plain gas/oil. As long as the measuring tolerance is reasonably close, it shouldn't be an issue. At this time I have no clue what Digitron readings are for ethanol fuel so I guess now its time for a new battery in the meter and some testing when I get gas for the car.

But the question remains if the higher meter reading will open the door for some of the more sophisticated race gasolines?

[bill van steenwyk]

things to consider when using E-10 in your racing engines

I completely agree with the four or so previous posters in their take on the negative comments on E-10. There is an old saying, consider the source, so take it for what it is worth. It (E-10) is here and has been here in the midwest for several years, and is coming to your part of the country before you know it, and everyone needs to learn to live with it, or your recreational activities (and everyday ones also) can be frustrating.

As for the poster that lives in the NW, they may have ethanol free gas now, but their time is coming, as it has in lots of other parts of the US, so they might as well get ready.

I have fought problems the last several years with my bass boat, bought used from a location where ethanol free gas had always been used in it. When I brought it to Missouri, used it 6-8 times the first summer with E-10 for the first time after purchase, and then stored it over the winter, even with Stabil Treatment, I had problems from the first time I tried to use it the next spring. These ranged from disintegration of various rubber/neoprene parts in the fuel lines, fuel pumps, etc., leading to stoppage of the fuel flow to the injectors and clogging of the screens and filters designed to protect them, to water in the fuel filter/separator, to water in the fuel tank that had experienced "phase separation" over the winter. In addition the ethanol actually dissolved deposits that were in the fuel tank and that was carried thru the fuel system the next spring when the motor was run for the first time.

The problems that exist with the use of E-10 are primarily with Marine and Recreational equipment, because the fuel system on that type equipment is not "sealed" as it is on an automobile, and consequently the fuel system on your car is not open to the air allowing the ethanol to "suck" the moisture out of the atmosphere like it will with other type systems. Much good information can be found on proper ways to prevent these type problems on a recreational boating web site called "Scream and Fly". Access the site and then use the search function to find several threads on ethanol use with Marine engines. The Mercury factory web site also has very good information on how to deal with the potential problems from the use of E-10 in the type equipment we play with. The fuel line that most of the Merc and OMC dealers are now selling are touted to be impervious to E-10. I have replaced all the fuel line on my V-6 a year ago and had no further problems. The new hose is silver in color. Stabil also has a new "Ethanol" treatment, blue in color instead of red as the older type was. I have no idea what that might do to a Digitron, so that might be worth a test also to help determine what if anything that does to a meter if a racer is using it in their fuel to ward off some of the problems with its use. Also it helps to keep spare fuel container tightly sealed and not store E-10 for long lengths of time, as it will suck the water right out of the atmosphere if left open to the air, even thru the tank vent.

Long story short, NBRA and the responsible parties that worked so hard on this project are to be congratulated instead of criticized, but as previously mentioned, you can just consider the source. We would all probably have less work to do if all the service stations were still selling the "old" type gas with no ethanol, but those times are long gone, especially here in the midwest. Anywhere else in the country if you don't have E-10 or, coming soon E-15, don't worry, you will soon be faced with the same situation we in the midwest have been for several years now. Florida and along the east coast are just learning how to deal with it recently.

[RandY Aveline]

ok i gotta ask what material would be used to replace the fuel pump diaphragm now ?

[bill van steenwyk]

many replacement parts much better for ethanol

Best to check with your friendly Merc dealer. He would be able to tell you if the materials now being used are more ethanol friendly than the original ones manufactured years ago and some of which are still probably being used.

Please remember that MOST IF NOT ALL potential problems with ethanol use can be nullified by running the engine on a pure gasoline/lube mix, after racing with the E-10 brew. PRO racers have used this method for years and years so as to eliminate the residual effect of running 100% methanol which has the same properties as ethanol insofar as rubber/neoprene and aluminum. The effect on rubber and neoprene is not instant but cumulative, and a diaphram is not going to dissolve immediately. One would probably last a long time if flushed with straight gas after running on E-10. As previously mentioned most if not all of the fuel line being sold now days at the marine dealer and also auto parts stores is ethanol impervious or resistant. That is because in a good portion of the country E-10 is nothing new but has been in use for a number of years, especially the midwest where the tall corn grows.

I have no personal knowledge of this, and they might refuse to sell to you because of tax or other reasons, but it is my understanding that the ethanol is NOT added at the refinery, but at the fuel distributor, at the same time the truck is filled to deliver to the retailer. Also there is also your local airport for ethanol free gas, as it is not used in aircraft. Some will sell to non-aircraft users if you bring a container or boat, others will not. You have to check in your local area.

Like anything else when a change is made, there are sometimes bad things that can happen. Most if not all the problems have been with older equipment. For example the bass boat I spoke about has an engine on it over 10 years old when I purchased it. Because there was no E-10 at the time, manufacturers were not concerned about parts being bathed in it, so materials were not made to withstand it. If proper procedures and maintenance are followed, you probably will have a minimum of problems. Again, the Scream and Fly and Mercury websites have some very good information on how to deal with its use.

[Art K]

E 10

We have used E10 more than once in our 44 mercs at local races with no problems when their was no other source. Did not do anthing special afterword either. No problems that I could detect. Was their a performance advantage? None that we could detect.
I also have a 96 Yamaha 50 hp on our fishing boat. It was bought new and has run on nothing but regular ethanol. Iuse this motor a lot and have had not any fuel related problems. It had 2 full 6gal. tanks the end of Nov. I started and ran this motor 2 weeks ago. Have ran both tanks through it with no problems.
I have been around outboards most of my 73 years. It seems like when the motor manufacturers had problems over the years the standard answer was , you must have got bad gas. Like or not ethanol is here to stay. It is time that boat racing learns to adapt
Art K