J Motors, now what do we do...

[ryan_4z]

I've said it before and I will say it again it's not about me (I race what I race)
its about where people get a start and Many believe it's stock outboard.
Ask your family members the older the better the hey day of clamp on motors was when you bought it off the shelf even motors called 36 I believe Chrysler and Evinrude..Help me out old guys you know more about off the shelf engines then me as I only raced once in stock and that was Super C
(cresent realy nice).

I don't need to ask anyone, nor do I need to be told, I know a little bit about the history of Stock Outboard. You left out a very important part of the history though. Keikhaefer had a racing department, in fact, racing was one of the leading causes for companies such as Mercury, Johnson, and Evinrude to improve their products in the late 40s. Once Mercury established their supremacy, and eventually gained a monopoly on Stock racing, they produced motors in racing form for us. Evinrude did the same years later with the "A" and 45 motors. These were not pleasure craft motors. They had racing towerhousings, and racing gearfeet. With the evolution of boats, and the smoother racing conditions we now compete on, I would guess that using a big tall motor, with a bulky club foot, would be a much less enjoyable, and less safe ride. The 36 class that you mentioned was very short lived, and with little popularity from what I understand. I would guess that this was due to the reasons I have just mentioned. As you can see, my reluctance to run off the shelf is not stubborness, or a refusal to change, but I actually have thought out reasons for this.

All that being said, if someone were to prove to me that running an off the shelf motor was not only safe, and controlable, but also an enjoyable, exciting ride, then I would certainly reconsider my position. I would not want to see this compromise our style of racing though, i.e. heavy, oversized rigs running at lower, less exciting speeds.

You know I almost bought a D from Mr. Bass but with the hard time that they recieved from the Stock Commission I opted out...I'm not going to
hunt the planet to race in a stock outboard class and I'm not a little guy
and have to race something with plenty of power.

This is to bad. This percieved "hard time" has allowed the Tohatsu to smoothly assimilate into competition in the "D" class, and is now very competitive, and quite possibly(I think probably) the motor to have.

Pat [/QUOTE]

[raceright]

I don't need to ask anyone, nor do I need to be told, I know a little bit about the history of Stock Outboard. You left out a very important part of the history though. Keikhaefer had a racing department, in fact, racing was one of the leading causes for companies such as Mercury, Johnson, and Evinrude to improve their products in the late 40s. Once Mercury established their supremacy, and eventually gained a monopoly on Stock racing, they produced motors in racing form for us. Evinrude did the same years later with the "A" and 45 motors. These were not pleasure craft motors. They had racing towerhousings, and racing gearfeet. With the evolution of boats, and the smoother racing conditions we now compete on, I would guess that using a big tall motor, with a bulky club foot, would be a much less enjoyable, and less safe ride. The 36 class that you mentioned was very short lived, and with little popularity from what I understand. I would guess that this was due to the reasons I have just mentioned. As you can see, my reluctance to run off the shelf is not stubborness, or a refusal to change, but I actually have thought out reasons for this.

All that being said, if someone were to prove to me that running an off the shelf motor was not only safe, and controlable, but also an enjoyable, exciting ride, then I would certainly reconsider my position. I would not want to see this compromise our style of racing though, i.e. heavy, oversized rigs running at lower, less exciting speeds.



This is to bad. This percieved "hard time" has allowed the Tohatsu to smoothly assimilate into competition in the "D" class, and is now very competitive, and quite possibly(I think probably) the motor to have.

Pat

[/QUOTE]

Didn't forget merc purposely left it out. There contribution to Racing Outboards doesn't need mentioning. Just feel that if off the shelf engine's were used in time the Honda's,Yamaha's Suzuki's of the world would want to win and in time you would get the type of engine we all would like to see. A friend was asking about buying a D Tohatsu and it seems that availability is harder now,this I understand.. But enough said young man will you be at Detroit could have a few interesting beer

Pat

P.S..you still have that Mohawk(will be easy to see in a crowd)

[ryan_4z]

Pat, If we were to recieve manufacturer support then I would love to see us using more commercially available engines. I am planning on being in Detroit. I no longer have the mohawk, but you will recognize me at the unshaven, under-dressed, shaggy haired, grungy looking guy in close proximity to the bar, or better yet, fully stocked cooler! Don't comfuse me with Jesse Swain though, he also fits that same description.

[raceright]

Didn't forget merc purposely left it out. There contribution to Racing Outboards doesn't need mentioning. Just feel that if off the shelf engine's were used in time the Honda's,Yamaha's Suzuki's of the world would want to win and in time you would get the type of engine we all would like to see. A friend was asking about buying a D Tohatsu and it seems that availability is harder now,this I understand.. But enough said young man will you be at Detroit could have a few interesting beer

Pat

P.S..you still have that Mohawk(will be easy to see in a crowd)[/QUOTE]

Oh yea I forgot History does repeat itself only if you let it I for one do not believe Outboard racing will never see the Numbers it had in the past

[raceright]

Pat, If we were to recieve manufacturer support then I would love to see us using more commercially available engines. I am planning on being in Detroit. I no longer have the mohawk, but you will recognize me at the unshaven, under-dressed, shaggy haired, grungy looking guy in close proximity to the bar, or better yet, fully stocked cooler! Don't comfuse me with Jesse Swain though, he also fits that same description.

All time question chicken or egg

[Skoontz]

Oh yea I forgot History does repeat itself only if you let it I for one do not believe Outboard racing will never see the Numbers it had in the past[/QUOTE]


I have a question then.....How come it is, the UIM can draw huge crowds compared to what we draw here? We will be there next year, KT has been invited to drive a JT-250 boat, and we are going....And from what I see of pictures, and publications, sponsorship is huge there. most every boat I saw had some type of advertising on the side/deck. And people crowd the water to watch.

So, what can be gleaned from the UIM, or from what was going on during the late 60's early to mid 70's factory wars to grow crowds and drivers??

[Richard K.C. Mo.]

Much ado about nothing!!!

Daren, what most don't understand is it has nothing to do with 2stroke/4stroke.
John Deere shipped all small tractors and Machinery out of KC Mo some yrs. ago , down to the last bolt in the factory, and what's more threatened engineers that were ready to draw pensions with penaltys if they didn't help train the new manufacturers engineers. What's with that, i guess you could say Globalization!!! Or is that Democracy in action?

Almost anybody but Hillary or Rudi. maybe that's to harsh,3rd party time. And i am by what i see.
RichardKCMo

I spoke with Mercury today and they no longer make any of the 15hp 2strokes in the USA for sale. All the tooling was shipped overseas. I have a call in to another friend at Merc and he is gonna get me some more info on Tuesday.

[sam]

I don't need to ask anyone, nor do I need to be told, I know a little bit about the history of Stock Outboard. You left out a very important part of the history though. Keikhaefer had a racing department, in fact, racing was one of the leading causes for companies such as Mercury, Johnson, and Evinrude to improve their products in the late 40s. Once Mercury established their supremacy, and eventually gained a monopoly on Stock racing, they produced motors in racing form for us. Evinrude did the same years later with the "A" and 45 motors. These were not pleasure craft motors. They had racing towerhousings, and racing gearfeet. With the evolution of boats, and the smoother racing conditions we now compete on, I would guess that using a big tall motor, with a bulky club foot, would be a much less enjoyable, and less safe ride. The 36 class that you mentioned was very short lived, and with little popularity from what I understand. I would guess that this was due to the reasons I have just mentioned. As you can see, my reluctance to run off the shelf is not stubborness, or a refusal to change, but I actually have thought out reasons for this.

Ryan your understanding of the history of stock racing may not be as deep as you have been led to believe.

36 was a fairly popular class for many years ... the briefly run class you refer to was probably the 35ss class that "replaced" 36 as part of the 25ss "deal".

OMC produced no racing equipment from about 1940 until 1967 (the owner, Briggs, had a very strict policy against racing); Mercury started producing racing parts in 1950 ... after Champion and Martin started to dilute the "pure stock" pleasure motor racing that Merc's owner Carl Kiekhaefer preferred, fat lower units, tall towers and all. The Merc racing stuff evolved without competition from OMC ... which is why Kiekhaefer was able to pass off fishing motors with racing towers and lower units as "Stock Racing" motors.

As far as racing with the bulky lower units and tall motors ... all that would be needed would be boats built class specific ... pretty much as they are now: You would not race a boat built for ASH in FEH nor the other way around.

[sam]

.... or from what was going on during the late 60's early to mid 70's factory wars to grow crowds and drivers??

The "factory wars" were OPC at its peak which had the old NASCAR type brand loyalty aspect, but in reality was a creation of OMC's advertising department. The truth was Merc consistently dominated by a factor of about 10:1. There was no parity committee and one-up-manship made for very expensive racing ... every year or less you had to buy the latest most expensive new equipment to be at the very front of the pack. Exciting for the fans, but for anyone paying for the racing - ouch! Pretty much the exact opposite of the theory of Stock Racing.

For the most part there were fewer entertainment choices and more people knew a little bit more about machines than these days ... more mechanically inclined people rooting for something they knew a little about. Today, the average person barely knows which end of a screwdriver to hold, much less what to do with it.

Stock Outboard racing has been in decline since its peak in the late 1950's. Questions and stories about the decline and how to reduce it or reverse it have been ongoing since the year 1960 ... 47 years and counting. Boat racing and outboard racing in particular lost a major patron when William Randolf Hearst stepped down from running his newspaper empire at the same time.

[csh12M]

Now we are getting somewhere....

Daren thanks for some FACTS.....

If the motor is no longer in North America production and the tooling went overseas then..... It might be a pretty good guess that Mr. Bass is right. The Tohatsu 9.9/15 may be very similar to the Mercury. Maybe very very similar..... The next logical step to me is to see if we can confirm that guess. Daren keep digging.... Now we need to determine if any racer in NA has a 9.9 or 15 2stroke Tohatsu. I know probably not.... but let's keep investigating.

Thanks,
Dean

[mercguy]

Daren thanks for some FACTS.....

If the motor is no longer in North America production and the tooling went overseas then..... It might be a pretty good guess that Mr. Bass is right. The Tohatsu 9.9/15 may be very similar to the Mercury. Maybe very very similar..... The next logical step to me is to see if we can confirm that guess. Daren keep digging.... Now we need to determine if any racer in NA has a 9.9 or 15 2stroke Tohatsu. I know probably not.... but let's keep investigating.

Thanks,
Dean

Dean, I will know that information on Tuesday, as the tech guy I talk to at Mercury has the rest of the week off..........

[G Stillwill]

Its a complettly different motor and nothing like the Merc and acctually I dont think the two stroke is avalible in the U.S , all the dealers and the U.S Distrubitor that are in this country were only advertising the four strokes.

http://www.capferret-sportscruisers...._Engines_1.pdf

[Richard K.C. Mo.]

Sam I Am !!!

Sam, so right 36" was aroung 'till 30Hs came out, i guess because it fit that D boat.
Was a fun class though a bit slow compared to.
Was only a runabout class , though speeds were comparable to c mercs , but c/g was quite high ,after all it was stock racing ,no stinking mod towers here.
RichardKCMo

Ryan your understanding of the history of stock racing may not be as deep as you have been led to believe.

36 was a fairly popular class for many years ... the briefly run class you refer to was probably the 35ss class that "replaced" 36 as part of the 25ss "deal".

OMC produced no racing equipment from about 1940 until 1967 (the owner, Briggs, had a very strict policy against racing); Mercury started producing racing parts in 1950 ... after Champion and Martin started to dilute the "pure stock" pleasure motor racing that Merc's owner Carl Kiekhaefer preferred, fat lower units, tall towers and all. The Merc racing stuff evolved without competition from OMC ... which is why Kiekhaefer was able to pass off fishing motors with racing towers and lower units as "Stock Racing" motors.

As far as racing with the bulky lower units and tall motors ... all that would be needed would be boats built class specific ... pretty much as they are now: You would not race a boat built for ASH in FEH nor the other way around.

[nbass]

Tohatsu Option

Its a complettly different motor and nothing like the Merc and acctually I dont think the two stroke is avalible in the U.S , all the dealers and the U.S Distrubitor that are in this country were only advertising the four strokes.

http://www.capferret-sportscruisers...._Engines_1.pdf

I checked with my contact and it is not the 15/9 hp Mercury. No it is not sold as an available fishing engine in the USA, but I can import it if we can work up an arrangement with EPA to reasonably assure that it will never be used as anything but a competition engine just as we do for the D-stock. However, unlike the D-stock M50D2 Tohatsu, the 9.9/15 hp engine may have an end to its life in view by Mr. Tohatsu. If there is interest, I can ask that question next week.

Interest?
Neil Bass

[Skoontz]

Lane Curry, chickenship Racing

Lane has been wrenching for Ron Hill for a number of years now. He raced 36 with a n OMC, West Bend which worked better for him because of the side mounted carb.

At Longbeach, Lane, myself and Bunker Hill were trying to fix Jared Wallach's thtottle that required 4 arms and a small boy to ope n all the way, and hung up at 1/4 throttle....Lane talked alot about 36 class....He ran 54MPH with the prop Ron just refound for him. It looked like, and sounded like a great fun class, at least through Lane's eyes....