Ernie Dawe PLEASE WAKE UP???

[sax555]

Let's have a look?

motors for stock outboard racing
JSH&JSR OMC not in production MERC not in production
ASH&ASR omc end of road out of production
25SSH merc out of production
25ssR merc out of production thank god for the 302 but wait! out of production
BSR&BSR hotrod out of production

20SSH YAMATO80 out of production
CSH&CSR 102 OUT OF PRODUCTION
DSH merc out of production



SOUNDS LIKE YOU BOY'S BETTER PAY ATT' AND VOTE

[Dave M]

Speaking From Experience

J is the most frustrating class I have ever seen. I have seen the dissapointment on both the kids faces and fathers faces when they can't plane off. I have seen the dissapointment on not being able to compete. It is called boat racing and the object is to win. I agree J is a learning class, but most kids want to do well. Perhpas the first year or even maybe the second year they are content with the excitment of being in a race boat and riding around. What do you tell them when they want to run out front and you can't find a motor to do it without mortgaging your house. Should we really expect to grow grass roots racing when you tell a parent they will need to go through 10 engines to find a good one. We all see folks on here looking for J engines and how hard they are to find if you are not part of the clique. Hmmm.....

I think if you elminate the frustrations of planning off first you will have a lot more happy families. I for one can't stand the fact that the rig's set up does not change, and they draw a new prop and can't plane off.... that drove us away from the class, for good.

I don't know the answers completely, nor pretend to know them. The easiest way out is to wait a few years, skip the J program and move into some other class with out dated engines. Then you can test. Testing with J's is practically useless. You can't spend the weekend at the lake testing the APBA J props because you don't own them. And the test props you can buy are much different somehow than the race props. Same dam set up same dam boat, same driver, same everything except prop, and the gps says it is 3mph slow, and the next race prop they get they can't plane. This is just some experiences I have had with the stock J recently. There has to be a better way to do this than make the parents hair fall out and gray up. Frustrating does not even begin to cover it.

One more answer, go K Pro. Run your own props and your testing will mean something other than a boat ride.

[David Weaver]

Speaking From Experience ..Further

I ran J stock in the 70's with the Mercury 60-J engine. We must have had one of the few true stock 60-J's!! It ran well, but did not sound remotely like the engines that smoked-out front. I did OK for a year with a brand new Bowson boat racing against local drivers. But, when we competed at the first big race man did we get crushed. It would have been easy to get discouraged in hindsight, but I just kept trying. It was good to learn how to get the most of out the equioment even if it did not get you to the front

Later in life, I learned that all 60-J's were not created equal and that some engines remained less stock than others, but still passed inspection. And then I understood after a couple of years of J, why my father swore that we would never own another stock outboard (he also said the same thing about Ford once). The point is that my father was more discouraged than I was. I did not get discouraged with J until I focused on my dad's disappointment with the equipment.

Tell the kids to keep trying, keep focused and keep improving with what they have. If they enjoy themselves and see improvement, they will stick around for a long time.

And then when they are 14 buy them a 125cc, so that you do whatever you need to be competitive!!

[csh2z]

The single most important facture in this discussion is HONESTY. When a new person enters the sport and starts to ac***ulate equipment, he has to have guidance by veteran racers. If he is told, up front, the truth about his options, he can make an informed decision. He should be told that in the J classes, that the Mercury is, and will be, the dominant motor. If your goal is to learn how to race a boat, the OMC is fine. If however the goal is to WIN, the merc is the motor to buy. As long as new people are guided and informed, and not get screwed by somebody trying to unload there junk, we stand a good chance of retaining these new people. Most of the time, winning is more important to the father than the kid, they just want to have a good time ( at least the first couple of years ).

[14-H]

OMC vs. Merc in J/AX

I am not convinced there is any problem. Our team plays with Mercs because I cannot make an OMC run and because we wanted new equipment. We started with the Mercs in J when the OMCs were clearly dominant. Now, it seems like the Mercs are out front most of the time. But is this because they are faster or is it because there are simply more of them on the water giving better odds they will win and because they are in the hands of those who think winning is everything? (BTW: I agree with the proposition that J is a learning class)

I'm not convinced the Merc is faster. I see the Ruckers run very, very fast with their OMC (Ashley could have won the nats in both classes); I saw Justice wax us every time with his OMC until he moved on. I see Aaron Peterson and Adam Low run very fast with OMC's as well. Yes there is Luce, D'Agostino, Allen, Kiddy, and others with Mercs. But I still say this lot will run fast no matter what you give them.

Until the likes of Rucker and others go away are there are no longer any OMC's competing, I won't be convinced. But then again, even if this is the case, what's the problem? The Merc is not SOLD in the US, but it is still in production and you can put together a new engine from parts. APBA still has some for sale. Until something new comes along, I think what we have has been a good success.

[CSR4C]

Thinking out of the BOX

Last year I built Doug Martin a 10' Champion design boat for them to use on a 6hp lake where they have a cabin.
Here are construction photos of it: http://www.boatracingr11.com/Sorensen_boats/sorensen%2010'%20Champion%20pictures.htm
Doug has said that it is the perfect boat for what they are doing with it.
A couple weeks ago Bill Blackwell was invited to their lake and I recieved this email from Bill:
Darrell,

Last weekend, I was invited to Doug Marten's cabin in the Columbia Gorge where they own a cabin on a private lake. On this lake, there is a 6HP limit. Darrell, it was like a trip back into time. It was awesome. No Jet Skis. No big boats with big rollers. No million dollar mansions. The only way to get to any of the cabins is by boat, so everyone has these little boats. Most boats were aluminum or wood. There were not very many fiberglass boats.

I saw and drove your "A" sized Champion with a 6 HP Suzuki on it. It was great! And fun too! Doug's kids take the boat across the lake constantly with 1 in the forward cockpit. There was another guy on the lake there, Dick, that built a Champion from your kit. He did a really nice job. He ran a Mark 5 on it.

Later, we put a 60J on the Champion and got it going pretty good. I took it out and got it on plane and so did Doug Marten. Yes, that’s right. On plane with a 60J!

There were also these Glen-L Pee Wee's all over the place too. They are not a very good design, but apparently someone up there has built lots of them.

The cool thing was there were hydros and runabouts here and there on docks, just waiting to be used.

I guess that next weekend there is some informal 6HP racing. Aluminum boat classes under 14' and over 14'. 2 person Aluminum boat, Pee Wee and then Hydro class.

Sounds like fun to me. Reminds me of my childhood summers at my Grandparents lake cabin. Back in the good ol' days.

Thought you'd find this interesting.

Bill Blackwell

Here is where all of this is going -
I think the J class should be:

Boats & motors that are easly obtainable

They can get on plane easly

Can be used for other things other than racing

What I have proposed to Ernie Dawe is a easy to build design simular to the champion that can built from material from you local lumber yard or Home Depot or Lowe's
I am going to build a prototype boat with material from Home Depot, Ernie is going to come up with the motor, most likley a 4 stroke.

Any input would be appreaciated, especially on the motor!

Darrell

[3rd Chance]

J's

To me, it seems very little has changed in J since i raced about 10 years ago (except for the addition of the Merc)...........guess what, I remember the same BS about props and boats and motors (even though they were all OMC's). Just make the best of the situation and make sure your kid is having fun because at the end of the day, that is all that matters...

[MGallagher]

Here ya go!!! Best idea I've seen!!
I'm probably going to get punched in the face for this, but here we go:
J(9-12)- Minimost with stock 5hp Briggs and Stratton
AXSH & AXSR(13-16)-Merc only no restriction J props
ASR & ASH(16 and up)- OMC/Sidewinder
etc...,etc...,etc...

PS- Farmer, tell me just to shut-up!

[MGallagher]

I am just concerned with state laws, since we are having so much trouble here in NJ with our J program I am trying to think of the law makers in this sales pitch also. The 5hp part of the plan is a great selling point for kids here in NJ.

[reed28n]

Racing in J

Just fuel for thought. It is rare that we see a new comer get out front right away. Most fast J's come from fast famlies. Right or wrong. Those guys know how to do it. They know how to set up the boat, they know how to maintain their equipment and they know how to test.

I am not familiar with everyone on this thread but I would hope that as John Runne suggested, if you want to get out front get a good mentor and a good start.

I was a frustrated Hot Rod driver until I figured out the first three or five motors I built I had no business messing with....I could have saved myself a bunch of money having Tom Moulder or Cooper Jess build me the first motor..... I just didn't know any better. Then I butchered my props only concerned with how many RPM I could turn.....I just didn't know what I was doing..

Our sport is far more technical than boat, motor, prop ...push play....

I think the J class is OK and I sympathize with the frustrated drivers....flatten the bottom of your boat, check how far the motor is from the back of the boat, check your bore for round and straight and keep checking and checking and checking and testing and testing and testing. By the way my Dad used to get really frustrated with my brother because he would test for hours and forget to look at the speedometer....so J's have a lot of hurdles

Most importantly remember what Jerry Davids said... the J class is a stepping stone and getting driving experience and having fun are the most important.....

[Tony Staron]

George, (WHAT SIDEWINDER) Does this motor exist? HEIL HOTROD. I've been waiting for a sidewinder over 3yrs. Give me a break!

Tony Staron

[MGallagher]

Tony,
I'm sure your first on the list for Racing Outboards to get a Sidewinder! Keep up that constructive criticism and positive reinforcement!

[Skoontz]

Testing

First, we were given an antiquated, bad handling boat, and, that is what we have been running in J. Sitting in the shop is the 6th new edition boat Ernie Dawe has built, and, i know we will acheive more success with that.

Second, we have little to no water to test on in region 12, largely due to nimby's and envirowhackos, which is a different arguemwent for a different day.

Third, I, not KT, do pleanty of testing. I use Mycron 4, with numerous sensors and monitor every aspect of our engines, which, is EXACTLY why I KNOW restrictors are old school....The knowledge I have gained, will eventually, when we get to hit the water, prevail. KT is very comfortable putting her foot on the deck, Ron Hill and Steve Wilde both coached her at Barenda Resevoir, and now she does it all the time.... After seeing the torque numbers at the RPM's using an exhaust restrictor, planing would not ever be an issue again, but, once again, not worth the time trying to change anything. I had to see that for myself just for the sake of myself......

The old Lovecraft showed 44.2 on the GPS at Irvine Lake. The boat flies high with the motor tucked 3/8" under...but, it does not handle worth a tinkers darn... KT got tossed in milling at Longbeach when a boat shoved her into a buoy, and the last heat, she came from the clock to turn one 8 boats ahead of the pack on a legal start, only to come too hot into the turn and twist off plane...Hence, the decision for the new boat..... Tammy Dawe showed 2 MPH faster than her old boat with this new design, and we shall see how it works in J. I'm not buying a dedicated J rig, as in a year she will be out of the class....But, this brings a good point.....If in order to compete, meaning show the field around the course one must run a rig designed just for J, it totlally defeats the purpose and concept of what should be classed entry level. The thought, as I have ascertained, is that one can in theory, remove one plate and prop, and step up to the next class only having to make subtle inexpensive changes....I guess that thought is old school, reading that J boats are now dedicated to J class.....But hell it's only money, right????

Far as engines go, I know what works, and I love to learn and experiment from all. My testing if for only the reason to satisfy what I knew all along, is well worth my time.

There is yet a better way regulate speeds...Use the GPS rigged to a rev limiter. If the boat for any reason goes over for arguements sake, 42 MPH, it's now DQ'ed. Run what ever you want, no plates, whatever props, however...Use the $100.00 GPS and a $15.00 sensor to tell the tale. And you ain't gunna cheat on the GPS.....

Anyhow, I'm preparing for the Thunderboat Regatta, 3 great days off Fiesta Island of testing, racing, and promoting this sport. I can't wait!

[G Stillwill]

Skoontz how can you be out promoting a aport that you think everything is wrong with it. Each class boat does just what its intended to do go fast in that class and its called racing, if you just want to go for a boat ride then any boat will do. Inspectors have a tough enough job inspecting without having goofy stuff to check on top of what they have now. The plate is not the problem 90 percent is the boat and setup, get the gear foot to close to the back of the boat and its not getting on plane period with a J. If your new boat is an ASH boat then your still going to have planing problems. You really need to devote your time into making work with what rules are in place.

[mercguy]

well said George.......

Skoontz how can you be out promoting a aport that you think everything is wrong with it. Each class boat does just what its intended to do go fast in that class and its called racing, if you just want to go for a boat ride then any boat will do. Inspectors have a tough enough job inspecting without having goofy stuff to check on top of what they have now. The plate is not the problem 90 percent is the boat and setup, get the gear foot to close to the back of the boat and its not getting on plane period with a J. If your new boat is an ASH boat then your still going to have planing problems. You really need to devote your time into making work with what rules are in place.

Skoontz, you need to listen!