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Picked up an 8' Hydro/Runabout thing last weekend, what is it?

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  • #46
    You did well to sharpen up the trailing edges of the bottom in the pictures above... You won't find a "spoon fed" service manual for your engine or especially for the gearcase. You'll just need to be patient and take the free advice from unpaid volunteer help on these websites.

    There are three or four guys who offer a paid service to rebuild/repair your quicksilver racing gearcase and if your budget allows, it's the best way to go. Ron Thomas (The Foot Doctor) North of Milwaukee, Doug Kay near Detroit or Steve Roskowski, Indianapolis come to mind right away as expert, trustworthy shops to send the gearcase to get it back in shape to run. It's a rare bird, with constant maintenance required to keep it healthy, otherwise it's a $1,200 paper weight if you screw it up. The engines are a dime-a-dozen in the antique outboard motor circles as basically a fishing engine and you likely won't damage the racing exhaust tower so concentrate your effort on making the gearcase reliable.

    Could you post some pictures of the engine in this thread...? Not really wanting to watch all the YouTube videos to catch up on this project.

    Twice in comments you've brushed past or simply ignored some good advice... Your flywheel has a manual rope start sheave that does not belong there and your recoil is likely jamming on it. Remove it. The recoil should only engage the funky flywheel nut, not the added rope sheave with manual rope start slots.



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    • #47
      Called Ron tonight, going to drop off the lower unit tomorrow, but I notice it has a crack in it near the drain plug. :\

      Anyway, here are pics of the engine as requested:




      Comment


      • Shane_B
        Shane_B commented
        Editing a comment
        So judging by the serial #, your motor is a 50-51 KG-4 and since there is no “Q” after their serial #, the quick silver unit was a later add-on as mentioned previously (info obtained from the “oldmercs.com” website. Are you going to put a fin 1/2 to 2/3 back from end of sponson to transom center hull for stability/turning? Racing hydros have fin on back of left sponson for turning (only left turns - or you will go swimming!), but for a lake boat, above centered position will do turning either direction…. Just think without a fin you may have directional stability issue… especially when turning. Maybe some wiser folks out there might have a suggestion. (Note, when installing a fin, need to have a backing plate…). You are going to have fun out there, just be safe!

    • #48
      Alright boys, I dropped my lower unit off at Ron's place yesterday over my lunch hour. Super cool guy, showed me his workshop and his assortment of tools/parts. We took the cone nut off the back, and he started pulling parts to look at the prop shaft, everything is pretty good, what surprised me most was that he said I should reuse my old waterpump; it's in great condition and very resiliant; he said the reproduction waterpumps don't spring back like some of the originals.

      Anyway, we got to discussing the rest of my build, and he mentioned a remote throttle hookup for KE7/KG4/KG7s, and drew me a diagram of what I'm looking for. I've been hunting around online... this is the only thing I can find; is this what I need?

      https://www.oldmercs.com/product_p/1028a1.htm

      This plate, plus bowden/teleflex cable, and my quincy throttle = good to go?

      Also, what is the best way to make a lanyard on this style engine? With all the electronics up top, I'm just unsure of the best way of cutting the ignition if I go for an unintentional swim.

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      • #49
        Have Ron help you with that also... there are cutoff switches also available.
        sigpic

        Dean F. Hobart

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        • #50
          Super pics! You are in "good hands" with Ron Thomas and you are very lucky to live close enough to visit in person! If you need/want a bottom fin for your boat, I just ran across one in my storage and will donate it to your restoration. Check your boat bottom carefully and you may see the previous mounting holes for a fin. Really, the only difference between a 20ci KE/KF/KG/KH-7 block and a 15ci KG-4 (A-class) block is the displacement, so you may still have a 20ci (B-class) engine there with a KG-4 tank rim and serial tag.

          Have you figured out which "Sea Flea" boat plans your hydroplane was built from?? It is not a Minimax or a Minimost.

          Could it be this little shingle? https://www.muskokaseaflea.ca/Plans/...0Hot%20Rod.pdf

          You seem quite capable and resourceful enough to really make this project a hit. Stay the course and do the restoration of the engine correctly and you'll have a whole lot of fun.





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          • ZUL8TR
            ZUL8TR commented
            Editing a comment
            That link went to message that stated:

            This site contains deceptive content
            We have detected a variety of phishing items on www.muskokaseaflea.ca that might attempt to trick you into installing harmful software on your computer and revealing your sensitive personal information, such as passwords, bank account information, etc. Learn more about "what is phishing and how it works"

            So my protection software said to not go.

        • #51
          Definitely a Sea Flea… with a rounded bow front instead of flat and straight. Good job fixing it up.

          Your KG4 is what was called the ‘Thin Flange Block’ style…. That is why there is no Serial Number on the block flange… because it is too thin for stamped numbers. Was there a ‘Seal Lead Wire’ on the motor before you took it apart? Most likely it is an all original KG4 with the 447380 Serial Number on the front plate on the tank rim. It’s cool to have an all original motor. Good job.
          sigpic

          Dean F. Hobart

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          • #52
            Originally posted by 25xs View Post
            Super pics! You are in "good hands" with Ron Thomas and you are very lucky to live close enough to visit in person! If you need/want a bottom fin for your boat, I just ran across one in my storage and will donate it to your restoration. Check your boat bottom carefully and you may see the previous mounting holes for a fin. Really, the only difference between a 20ci KE/KF/KG/KH-7 block and a 15ci KG-4 (A-class) block is the displacement, so you may still have a 20ci (B-class) engine there with a KG-4 tank rim and serial tag.

            Have you figured out which "Sea Flea" boat plans your hydroplane was built from?? It is not a Minimax or a Minimost.

            Could it be this little shingle? https://www.muskokaseaflea.ca/Plans/...0Hot%20Rod.pdf
            Yeah, I'll try to see if I can convince Ron to be in my next video update, he declined the first time :P

            What's the advantage to running a bottom fin?

            Is there an easy way to differentiate between the 15 and 20ci blocks?

            Also, THANK YOU! That DEFINITELY looks like my boat! I've spent a lot of time looking around and haven't seen any sea fleas with the twin sponsons like mine before! That's awesome!!!!

            Comment


            • Albert
              Albert commented
              Editing a comment
              My experience here on the forum in the last year has shown me that if you ask a good question you’ll get a good answer from this crowd. Heck even sometimes when you ask a mediocre question it seems like you get good info back.

              You’re doing great on the project. Keep it up.

          • #53
            Originally posted by DeanFHobart View Post
            Your KG4 is what was called the ‘Thin Flange Block’ style…. That is why there is no Serial Number on the block flange… because it is too thin for stamped numbers. Was there a ‘Seal Lead Wire’ on the motor before you took it apart? Most likely it is an all original KG4 with the 447380 Serial Number on the front plate on the tank rim. It’s cool to have an all original motor. Good job.
            What do you mean by seal lead wire?

            From what my dad told me about this engine, was that it was a mishmash of a few bits and pieces from multiple engines, so I kind of doubt it's originality.

            Comment


            • #54
              Originally posted by ADDvanced View Post
              1. What's the advantage to running a bottom fin?

              2. Is there an easy way to differentiate between the 15 and 20ci blocks?

              3. What do you mean by seal lead wire?
              1. You get to turn the boat.
              2. Not really. Bore diameter of cylinder and you can measure across the cylinder 'good enough' by removing the intake passage covers and measuring across top of piston to the exhaust side of cylinder.
              3. Factory put twisted pair of wires thru crankcase to block flanges and crimped a lead disk with an awesome "Kiekhaefer" logo. You had to break the seal to get into the powerhead. Very, VERY rare for a racing engine to have a block seal 60years down the road... See pic of new lead seal below. Kiekhaefer Mercury had a cool die crimping tool to crush the lead on the wires to make the block tamper proof (warranty...) lead seal.jpg
              Last edited by 25xs; 06-05-2021, 12:20 PM.



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              • #55
                One of the reasons Mercury put these wire lead seals on the motors meant that the motor had not been blue printed or ‘tinkered with’… so the inspection would take less time.
                sigpic

                Dean F. Hobart

                Comment


                • Albert
                  Albert commented
                  Editing a comment
                  Boys I bet no one found a way to replicate that seal.
                  Last edited by Albert; 06-06-2021, 04:06 AM.

              • #56
                The gearcase is the only really rare/valuable part on this engine, so I want to make sure it doesn't turn into a paperweight, so I'm having it serviced by a 4 time national hydro champion; Ron Thomas down in Milwaukee:



                Thanks Ron!

                Also, my GF is low key excited about this little thing and offered to help, so she offered to learn how to take the lower unit off:

                Comment


                • #57
                  So that's Ron, exchanged tele calls and several emails on Merc quicki stuff and the 25ss engine, the master of the gear cases, slight edit that would be Ron Thomas not Thomson.
                  Please post what Ron finds and did.
                  Thanks
                  "Keep Move'n" life is catching up!
                  No man's life, liberty or property are safe while the legislature is in session.

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                  • #58
                    Instagram informed me yesterday that the motor runs. Keep this updated it’s good entertainment.

                    Comment


                    • #59
                      Originally posted by ZUL8TR View Post
                      So that's Ron, exchanged tele calls and several emails on Merc quicki stuff and the 25ss engine, the master of the gear cases, slight edit that would be Ron Thomas not Thomson.
                      Please post what Ron finds and did.
                      Well, we disassembled my gearcase when I dropped it off; my waterpump was in amazing condition, and he said it was more pliable than his reproductions, so I should use it. The conical nut at the rear of the case was worn, so he's going to be using a new one when it's reassembled. The prop shaft itself looked really good, and did not show much wear, so that will be reused. The biggest issue was the gearcase itself had a 2" long crack coming from the drain plug going towards the rear edge. It stopped before the threads started; he was saying once the cracks get into the threads they're impossible to repair; even if you weld/remachine the threads, the forces on them when you tighten them will generally snap the welds. He's getting a guy up in FDL to drill out the end of the crack, reweld it, and make it beautiful again

                      I actually talked with Ron about my hull, and he shared some tips and tricks, some of which were said by others in this thread earlier. We discussed a sharp rear edge, along with the curve of the bottom of the boat (slight hooking up is ok, hooking down = pushes the bow down, slow), how to block it, textures/sanding/polished hulls and which one was faster, and the addition of airdams to my hull. I'm aware airdams will increase the performance, but I am hoping to run this thing as shown in the video, dial in the engine, and establish a baseline, then do the mods and see how it improves my speed.

                      Anyway, video:



                      Thank you for everyone's help! I have ordered a throttle adaptor from portagebay and a few other things to get this thing rigged. Next step is rebuilding the steering support and rigging it. I've also ordered a new float/carb rebuild kit, because although my engine does fire, it was leaking a fair amount of fuel from the carb, which seems like a stuck float.

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                      • #60
                        Good show the engine is responding, sounds good.
                        Have you set the timing for 180 spark balance and piston depth BTDC to fire?
                        What was the problem with the recoil that is now fixed?
                        Great trueing on the bottom that should help a lot.
                        Shame there is a crack in the gear case ;-( , hole to stop crack creep and weld is a good solution to save the case.
                        From my years testing and racing Mercs with these sensitive QuickiI units I never tightened the outer cone to the the manual value of 100 ft lbs + thread lock to boot, Yikes!. That tight probably aids cracking of these units and ruining threads. The cone needs to be pulled often (I do it after each use) for grease service of the outer needles in the inner cone (I assume your unit has those needle bearings, they made a cone without the needles?). I also change gear lube after each use to keep the Quicki internals alive, it has. Quickies on my past A & 20H engines and Merc 25ss (still have and use) I use 70 ft lbs + NGLI #2 grease with moly on the threads. I still put a sharpie hash line across case and cone for a quick view look to see if it loosened, never has :-) My 1973 Merc 25ss with essentially the same Quicki cone design as yours has the same cone nut, gears, bearings. prop and drive shafts (seals have been replaced) as when bought in 1973 to race in APBA . CCW tighten same as prop rotation also helps keep it there along with well balanced props. For me the 70 ft lbs is more than enough to keep water pump cartridge pressed against the prop ball bearing and compress the O ring to seal and not ruin threads and cause cracks.

                        With your Quicki to be welded I would be careful with excessive cone tighten especially if the new cone fits well in the old case threads.
                        Also when you are ready to run there is no need to excessively tighten the prop nut to secure the prop. The shear pin is in double shear and excessive tightening can easily start the pin shearing process to failure. I use a nylock 1/2 x 13 tpi nut with a fender washer as a backer on the prop and good hand snug tight with 7" x 3/8 drive wrench and glove to hold the prop. The nylock holds well and has never loosened for me.
                        Keep us up dated.
                        "Keep Move'n" life is catching up!
                        No man's life, liberty or property are safe while the legislature is in session.

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