National Meeting Updates?

[DougMc]

Other than safety, does a round or pointed pickle change performance? Would a boat need to be totally redesigned or does it make no difference at all?

I briefly spoke with Dean Sutherland and his dad at the Ocoee Winter Nationals regarding their boats which have no pickels at all. I would be interested in their posting here and reading what they have to say, especially since they run so well and have dominated CSH for some time.

Below is the "Ask Fredd" column from the September Grapefruit Circuit Gazette. Fredd spoke with Bill Giles about the subject, but it was more of a round front v. pickle conversation.

-------------------------
Question:

What type of an advantage, if any, does a boat without pickle forks have over a traditional pickle fork design? Is this something I should look at in the future?

- Doug McAlarney, Tallahassee, FL.


Answer:

Doug, I spoke with boat builder Bill Giles, and he has no clue as to an advantage in using a non-pickle boat. The last successful boat of that style was built and raced by Steve Warnock.

Warnock is now using little pickles, similar to what Bunky Bowerman did in the 70 & 80's. A pickle basically gives the boat a longer feel while being shorter in bottom.

Also, when you turn, the lift breaks up and the boat stays to the water tighter, rather than become a floater like the old style did.

Bill Giles is not worried that this design will return. Heck, we could go back to canvass decks for a lighter boat too.!? I don't think so…

- Fredd Schmidt

[Dave_E71]

Sounds like the proposal did not pass.

That will teach me to wait so long between typing the message and hitting the submit key.....


John,

Do you have any insight as to why the rounded/deformable sponson tips failed? I know that in my case, the rounded tips on my 250 Giles boat don't seem to effect the performance at all and if it can help prevent or at least reduce the effects in an incident, I don't see any down side to it.


Dave

[mike ross]

There was never a motion made to accept or denie. If no motion gets made then no vote takes place. Out of the 18 commisioners present we read what Brian had propsed and all must have felt that mandading a change was not in order. I think boat builders need to work on this collectivley. Then post what a nice loking pickle these new round ones are. Mike

[ryan_4z]

In all honesty, I don't feel that there is a speed advantage. As for catching up to the "Jones", I don't run ASH regularly, nor is it a priority of mine, so to accuse me of trying to slow down the competition is ridiculous. There are numerous do***ented incidents in the last 2 years that can be attributed to the tuck under setup. The problem with that setup is that it doesn't take but one of many small things to go wrong, and you will be on your head quickly. As far as pickles penetrating combings, I don't thing that the point necessarily has much to do with that. I think you would have to hit at close to 90 degrees to penetrate. I think if you round the sponsons, the boat would either still break down the combing, or it would go right over the top, running over the driver. I for one would rather have the combing absorb the impact as opposed to my face. When it comes down to it, I just don't think there is enough substantial evidence to say that this is the right thing to do.

[kampenracing]

Round Pickles

I ran a Giles C-Mod hydro for a few years. The last year I ran the class I had an accident that almost exactly 90 degrees. It definitely broke through the combings on the other boat. It tore through the whole side right underneath the throttle. I think it would have done it with pointed or rounded pickles.

[Brian10s]

In all honesty, I don't feel that there is a speed advantage. As for catching up to the "Jones", I don't run ASH regularly, nor is it a priority of mine, so to accuse me of trying to slow down the competition is ridiculous. There are numerous do***ented incidents in the last 2 years that can be attributed to the tuck under setup. The problem with that setup is that it doesn't take but one of many small things to go wrong, and you will be on your head quickly. As far as pickles penetrating combings, I don't thing that the point necessarily has much to do with that. I think you would have to hit at close to 90 degrees to penetrate. I think if you round the sponsons, the boat would either still break down the combing, or it would go right over the top, running over the driver. I for one would rather have the combing absorb the impact as opposed to my face. When it comes down to it, I just don't think there is enough substantial evidence to say that this is the right thing to do.

So all your campaigning for the Tuck rule is just out of the goodness for your heart and your fellow racer. You are to be admired and emulated.
As for all these numerous accidents that proves a bad set up, who decided the true cause of the incident? Who laid blame on set up instead of driver error, water/ wind conditions, rouge wave/roller or that fish that jump out of the water and blinded the driver with the sunglare off his fins. Please name the names of this safety board that presented it's findings after reviewing all the evidence.
And how about instead of mandating setup, why didn't everybody just close the loophole in the height rule. Right now it is just a kick out limiting rule due to the way we measure it. Fix the way it is measured and you then do not have to worry about set up. You run max height at parallel. You go in 1/4 for tuck, you go have to go down 1/4, you go out 1/4 for kick out, you have to go down 1/4, simple. Our smartest minds are inspectors. tell them you want to measure the front and well as the rear easily and let them come up with the best method. That and I still do not get why max tuck is so bad in the OMC but ok is all other engines. Shouldn't it the same for all? Max kick out is bad for all.

Back to the matter at hand, your expert opinion on pointly pickles. Now remember, all I am really looking for is a 3 inch round on the end, instead of a point. The detachable is the best but I wasn't being greedy.
So far, all that you have brought to the table was sexy and that you would rather have them penetrate through the cockpit that glance off. And that in your opinion, there isn't enough evidence to support make a change.

On the 1st item, I think I have answered that.
2nd - I have seen what a sharp pickle does to a pretty think side (6mil then layer of carbon, then 5mil with the grain turned, then fiberglass then 3mil withthe grain turned) and pickle went right through and tip was not damaged (it broke off but was not crushed). So i ask you, how thick are your cockpit sides?
3rd - not enough evidence for you. Well another organization found that there was more than enough, UIM. I will attach a link to their rule book for you to refer to. http://www.uimpowerboating.com/vsite...v-list,00.html
Here is their rule on pickles:
Pg 161 of their circut rulebook & pg 162 has a nice picture of one for your reference.
509.02 - PICKLE-FORKS
A boat is allowed to race in a re-started heat/race without a pickle, if it has been lost during a stopped heat/race.
All race boats of catamaran type, designed and equipped with pickleforks, must have deformable and energy absorbing pickle-forks
according to the following:
“The most forward end of the picklefork must be deformable and must
be designed to crush.
The deformation must start at a maximum of 140 kg.
“The main body of the sponson must end in a minimum 100 sq. cm (16sq. in) forward bulkhead made of minimum 8 mm (5/16 in) thick plywood or equivalent material. This bulkhead must be an integral part of the main structure of the sponson and must have a rounded area of at least 10 cm length ”
“The pickle fork must :
- be detachable and have nothing inside
- have a front end of minimum horizontal radius of 35 mm
- have of front end minimum radius of 20 mm in all other directions
“According to the following drawings”

While you are looking at the UIM rulebook, please have a look at pg 180, rule 522.02 cockpit sides. Make for an interesting read. Pictures on pg 181 & 182 are a nice touch.

All this is to show that somebody else must have thought these issues were of importance. Nothing will stop this a penetration, just like kevlar pants & sleves will not 100% prevent a cut or a helmet will prevent a head injury. However, everything listed reduces the likelyhood of injury.

So please bring a little more than you think there is a lack of evidence. I may not have all the evidence, but I was on the wrong end on a pickle once and that is enough evidence for me.
However, I have forwarded your name and number to the UIM headquarters so that you can straighten them out on all their misconceptions much like you straighten out all of us.

[Sean Augustine]

My take on pickles

On hot dogs I think you have to go with the "bread and butter" or "sweet variety". Hamburgers or deli sandwiches, I tend to go for a kosher dill or maybe a garlic.

As for the boats: the point Brian is making is that a "rounded" or "dull" sponson tip is inherently safer than a pointed sponson tip.

One - the force of the impact is spread over a larger surface area in the case of the rounded sponson tip, therfore you lessen the amount of blunt force trauma to whatever the sponson tip strikes.

Two - a rounded sponson tip has less puncturing ability (that's why we chip ice with a pick instead of a spoon). Therefore the amount of penetraing trauma to whatever the tip strikes is lessened.

It doesn't matter whether the sponson strikes a cockpit side or body part, the rounded/dulled sponson tip will cause less damage overall.

As for performance, I think someone earlier stated that the boat-builders should weigh in on this. I agree - Johnson, Bowman, Pavlick, Arlt, Pugh, Giles, Hemp, Krier and all others - what is your opinion?

As an aside, I think my new boat will have rounded sponsons.

Sean

[ryan_4z]

Brian,

Touche! I concede my arguement. You are right. I like the look of pointy pickles. But I can no longer argue, you have convinced me that I was wr....wr....wr...wrong. Ok now I've said it. You have made your point. I've never conceded a point to Ed maybe you should consider a profession in law.

[Bill Huson]

Like it, Sean :-)

Of course the Hokey Hydro factory built boats, many of them rather strange, so I'll chime in as a boat designer/builder. Pointy sponson tips don't do jack-diddly for aerodynamics or over water performance. You could saw the tips off, cram a tennis ball in the hole and duct tape it and you wouldn't notice a difference on the race course.

Style before function could (and has) cause an injury. If a driver wants style make the tips crushable. Do tell, what is so difficult about that?

One more thang - the front edge of the deck does not have to be sharp. Once again, like the style, make the forward 6" or so crushable. Just wanna go fast? Round the front edge off. Think all that won't work? Consult an areodynamic engineer, that's what I did.

[Composite Specialties]

Tips

I will only build rounded sponson tips on my boats, it does not matter what class boat it is. They will all be about a 2" radius on the tip.

Also, 10 years ago when I stopped building boats, my design back then used deformable sponson tips under the decking by slicing up the spruce framing from the pickle tip back about 12". If someone were to have an accident, then the sliced framing would break and the tip would break off.

Does anyone remember back in the early 90's (I think) the accident in the 45ss tunnel that Kevin Mahlilu (Spelling?) had that was caused by a sponson pickle coming thru the back of his capsule seat, injuring him? That was reason enough for me to make a change.

Sean, your sponson tips will be extra rounded to match the hills that you (so call) patrol on the ski patrol duty.

[Brian10s]

Brian,
I will take that (and I would never admit Ed is right either). I would like to thank you for joining in as I would have never provide as much info without my blood boiling alittle. Hopefully others will come over the the dark side as well.
Dave M,
Glad at least something I said sunk in. I will take a sumbission victory, it is better than nothing. Miss you on the email trails.

John 2-Z,
Thanks for being open minded. Can I count on you at least making the motion to put this to a vote next winter? I have a whole year to gather data and come up with even better agruments.

Mike,
That is one of the problems of not being able to attend the meeting. Can't twist arms from home.

Sean,
Glad to see you are still kicking. Thought a mutant crab climbed out of the bay, grabbed you up and was have Swankabobs this winter. But not sure if your agreement helps or hurts the cause but I'm glad to have you on board.

So, what is the next step. Argueing people into submission will take forever (not that I am not willing to do it, just if so, need to schedule times so I don't miss anyone). And it would be tough to race around the country knocking on every boat builders door to argue with them (and I might get shot at in some parts of the counrty). This is not going away, so why not hop on board and help shape the future. Boat builders, I am asking for your help. Boat buyers, your too. This is for the comman good and it will not make you any slower. If fact you might not pop that bouy as easy with rounded tips as you would a pointy tip.

[hagerl8m]

start small

Brian,

I feel the easiest way to go about this is to ask boat builders from this point forward to start making the pickles safer. If that happens the SORC will follow suit. OPC mandates that all boats must have it. So if newer boats have breakaway or deformable. Then go to older boats, don't try and change the whole thing in one try. Start with the larger classes, DSH, CSH, 20SSH, and so fourth. The faster speeds, the more chance there is to have an accident that you’re talking about avoiding. After that you might be able to convince runabout driver to do it too. Hope this helps.

[Richard K.C. Mo.]

Before APBA sucked?

I don't race seen some though, haven't seen any org. rules since early 60's as to boats.

Curious, shoudn't you'all look at nascar? After all it's pretty successfull, even with templates and all.

Slower doesn't hurt sometimes.
Richard.

[D_Allen_III]

I think the break away pickle/rounded pickle is a great idea. I the only problem I had putting it into motion was that it seemed to be an information/idea overload at the time. I hadn't heard anything about it, and like someone else said, if you don't have one if not two people at the meeting as your clones to argue the point, it hard to get it across. At the meeting if it isn't put into motion we don't even talk about it, so at the time it just flew right by.

Brian, start getting some ideas and data together like you said and get it rolling for next year. The only ones I've seen are on the Racecraft hydros but I would like to see some other options and ideas for the boat builders. Brian, do you have them on your boats already? If so I would like to check them out.

[hagerl8m]

molds

I've got molds for my 45, I think that they would fit on most boats, maybe this summer we can try retrofitting some on some current boats, honestly I don't think that it would be that hard to do. Next year Donnie, I’ll be there, to help you out, you've got my vote.

Here is what we can try, first see if the ones I’ve got fit over a current boat, second, there needs to be some sort of deflector, much like on the OPC boats, like say a 1/4 inch flat piece that caps the pickle, then a round area, made of foam or fiberglass that is destroyable. Finally covered by the break away. My tunnel doesn't have the breakaway. Which is totally legal. Just some more ideas. I’ve done with on the 45 so I know its doable, I took a 93 Hoffman and made it work.