Yamato Cooling Tests

[Graham 18ce]

what i dont understand, why isn't every boat running a temp gauge if you're concerned about the temp on your C/20/A whatever?
really, i see guys at every race blowing steam for half the straightaway looking for that last 1/2 MPH...run a gauge and know that you have to get some water to it before you damage the engine...
I dont know the relative numbers of people who have no issue at full height, but if it less then have the drivers out there, then lower the overall height a little more...an 1/8 or a 1/4. whatever it is that lets the motor get water properly.
sorry to interrupt the 321 discussion...

[Harold8]

Graham, I think you're right! Instead of testing all these new water pickups to make the motors run cool at the present heights, why not be testing different heights to see what works best for the motors. Ex. 3/4"for 20 and 1" for CSH as a starting point.

[Graham 18ce]

Hey, wait, you have a boat in this class and saying lower it down!!!

[Brian10s]

Here is a question - why can't the 321 powerhead be put in a 302 tower for 20 & C? Doesn't that eliminate the issue? Shouldn't there be a crapload of 302 towers from all the Mod guys that are just gathering dust in the garage?

So instead of trying to fix the root problem with the 321 - we have identified a larger problem with all the Yamato's that has been there for 40 yrs and for some reason every other "new blood" racer has figured out.

[Ericwienczak]

It can be, thats how we do it for C. but the overheating still exists. Part of the problem is in the spray shield among other things, but mainly exhaust housing

[adamallen]

Why not try to restrict the water output? That's something that's been done for years and by many.

[Ericwienczak]

Adam, the 321 doesnt seem to pump water as fast or as strong as a 302 does. Not only is the tower different, but the new exhaust housing has a longer run so it takes water longer to move through it

I believe it may be too intricate and its creating lower water pressure, while allowing the water to get hotter with the long run.

Maybe youre on to something. would restricting the water output increase the pressure?

[Lee Sutter]

Mostly in 20ssh although there are a few CSH that overheat too. Kyle Lewis overheats in our CSH in rough water. I would say 80% 20ssh and 20% CSH.

[Matt Dagostino]

Not that anyone cares but at Tabor City in choppy front water i cooked Team Mel's Yamato 102 at the finish line in CSH a couple months ago. Got it so hot it blew the head gasket. Very rare to cook a 102 but it does happen...and at 37 bucks per OEM ring along with new gaskets it isn't a cheap fix.

[adamallen]

I wish 14H would come out of HR retirement to show us how to diplomatically work through issues such as this!

[adamallen]

What will come first, Trumps tax returns or an end to the 14H moratorium on HR??

[Big Don]

I'm telling you, it's that 5th kid, it does you in all the time.

[Joe J]

I have run a Digatron temp tach in my C hydro for the last 15 years. My 302 has never passed 345 degrees, no matter water conditions, props, or playing with the setup.

I have no plans of running an external pickup if they are allowed. That being said, I agree 100% with the need for them on a 321 in CSH.

Joe Johnson

[GrandpaRacer]

You bring up an interesting case. Some 302s don't or rarely overheat and others do it a lot. A long time friend over heated his 302 almost every race (the water line was not plugged). Almost ready to give up on Yamatos he changed around some powerheads, towers and lower units and found a combination that worked much much better. Joe, don't sell your good combination! John

[GrandpaRacer]

The Yamato engines are the best available racing engine for the money. They are fantastic engines, super reliable except for one nagging issue. We race them higher than they were designed to be run, so they over heat too often. This results in some expensive repairs but more so it ruins your weekend and can quickly discourage the new guy getting into the Sport. Think about how many more racers we may have if our most popular classes did not have this one issue! Would or could this change the decline in the number of racers? If it becomes needed it is a lot easier for parity to be adjusted than this many year old problem of over heating at legal heights. Let your Commissioners know how you feel, please. John Adms

[Racerkyle20]

I'm all for this. SORC needs to make it happen in one capacity or another. I think having one certain design sold by one vendor would be ideal. That way everyone is running the same thing, kind of like the restrictors from TJ.

We have to realize this is the easiest and cheapest way to fix this problem. We can't go another season without them.

[csh12M]

I really don't care that much if this is done but just realize it won't lower barriers to be fast... it is going to overcool the engine and lower your speed. You will need to test and slide the tube up or down, or partially block the tube or put a twist in the hose or something I have not even thought of yet.... to get the heat to 400. It is going to add another dimension that needs to be tested and validated - the good teams will do it, but the guys that run it and overcool will complain that you still have to run on the edge to win. I just question if this will really solve anything. 302 shouldn't be burning up in CSH or CSR @ 3/4 - 20SSH is a different story, it runs at 1/2 - and requires effort to not burn your 302 at that height. C used to have the same problem at 1/2 inch. Lower 20SSH to 3/4 - and work on how to better exit the exhaust from the tower on the 321. That's the path I would pursue, it works the real root cause vs. a work around solution that would be implemented to preserve current rules. I applaud everyone's efforts and whatever the outcome will adjust to the new rules.

[Big Don]

Dean you are exactly right. All of those things could come into play. Part of what is being discussed is having measurements on all of this if that is the route we go? It's a kit and must be run as a kit? No tweaking allowed.

I would suggest we also put some sort of harsh penalty on this if that is the route we go. You get caught cheating and your are suspended for XX amount of time. We can't have another OMC A situation.

These amongst other things are all what needs to be discussed.

[DtwSailor]

I asked Matt for the files from his test and placed here for public viewing.

[Matt Dagostino]

MIKE DECK...............you are the man. Thank you for consolidating the data. The cooling team could use you!! Matt.

[DtwSailor]

No worries, but I don't think I would be a good asset on the cooling committee, because testing this fall showed different results! I'm going to be neutral until I have more data next season to disregard what we found thru both mycdron and visual inspection. Unless we get an offer to do some testing in a warmer climate while the snow starts here.

[Ram4x4]

Out of curiosity, and to kind of side-track a little here, how is a cooler engine slower? Before boats, motocross was my gig some years ago (before the 4-strokes took over) and in everything we did, running as cool as possible and cooling as much as possible was the goal. Cooler engines made more power. Just trying to understand how or why that is different in a 2-stroke boat engine?

As for a new dimension for testing, any changes, and I mean anything, is going to have some sort of recourse in terms of testing, however at least with the tube no one is going to be cooking their engines just trying to run at or near legal heights. Long-time racers will adjust to this quickly and easily. I expect the current top runners will continue to be the current top runners, regardless of any changes made, but newbies won't have to worry about absorbing and learning 30 years of racing knowledge before they buy a boat and 321 and cook it the first time out, or anyone for that matter. Sure, anything after that is up to the owner/driver, if they want to use, or not use a tube, adjust the tube height, and so on.

Working on the 321 tower has been discussed. I believe a solution could be found there, but at what cost? How much would it add to the price of a 321 if the tower has to be machined/drilled or whatever? What sort of turn around time? Would it be done to all 321's being imported? Would this modification work only be done by one person/company? We would have to consider what, if any changes to engine performance would result as well (i.e. it would take longer and be more expensive just to test this). How would this modification be checked/inspected? Does anyone running a 321 have to drop their tower for inspection every time they come in top 3 in a race?

There are certainly other solutions that would require no changes to the engines at all...you could change the legal depths for all classes the Yamatos run in. Sink everything to the 300SSH depth (since the 321 seems to run ok there) and then there's no more heating issues for any Yamato, no add-on tubes, etc.

The solution that is ultimately decided is going to be a compromise of something, somewhere. It has to be, or the 321 will realistically only be viable for 300SSH going forward. CSH and 20SSH would continue to maintain the status quo, or decline as no new engines would be available, or some might gamble $3,000 on the engine in an attempt to make it work in one of those classes, but that is not conducive to growing the sport.

Realistically, there are a few basic avenues of approach:

1. A simple, easy, cheap method to cool the 321 in particular, and other Yamatos in general.
2. An expensive method of altering the internals of the tower of the 321 (but this potentially ignores the 302).
3. Changing other established rules such as legal depths, etc.
4. Ignore the 321 cooling issue all together and simply let it remain in 300SSH. To heck with the other classes and let someone gamble their money if they want to spend the time to try to make it work there.

Given the rather polarized responses and opinions on this in general, clearly rule changes for depths aren't going to happen (unless of course, a 321 shows up in CSH or 20SSH and starts beating everyone, then you can bet screams for parity will ensue).

[GrandpaRacer]

You are absolutely correct a cool CHT developers more power, and at the same time you want hot EGTs. EGT is controlled with the mixtures adjustment. If you look closely at slide 15 in the presentation you will see the boat slows as the CHT on the 321 rises while running without the external pick up tube.

[GrandpaRacer]

I should add one more thing. You want a hot EGT but on aluminum engines there is a limit to how hot. Aluminum melts at 1221F so you want to be in the 1100s on EGT. Also, EGTs vary with the probe placement, generally you want the probe between 1-2 inches from the port.

[Ram4x4]

That is precisely why I advocate that the tube (if the SORC approves it) be allowed on all Yamatos. That way, no Yamato owner has any sort of advantage over another.

[pav225]

Good info and discussion on cooling. Please keep parity in mind...for all the motors in the class(es). It's working pretty well now, so let's be cautious not to mess it up.

[Charlie Pater]

Matt - I believe that your supposition that the 321 will not cool is incorrect. I believe the 321 will cool. It may not cool at the 20 ssh 1/2 inch but it will cool at a lower height AND be competitive with the 80 and 302. There is nothing in the rule book that says the motor cannot be run at a lower depth. My brother has raced the 321 at a lower depth in the 20 ssh class and it performed fantastically. If the rules are not changed, the 321 will be self limiting due to it's cooling/height preference AND to be in good parity with the 302 and 80.

[pav225]

Matt,
There is no intention on my part to derail the cooling issue or good discussion. I am simply asking for parity to be considered with improved cooling so we don't screw up 20ssH or other classes.

[Matt Dagostino]

Pav----------agree some sort of 'parity' should be in order but we kinda have a chicken vs the egg situation. What should come first, cooling or parity? Not sure we are all smart enough at this time to figure out how to accomplish both. It sucks we have like 5 different model engines in one class. Talk about a headache.

[Matt Dagostino]

[QUOTE=CSH12M;n451347] I just question if this will really solve anything.

What it will solve is the new Model 321 will cool like other motors with water pumps and now be able to be raced. People will continue to tweak on their exhaust manifold side exit hoses as they have for 40 years and do what they wish. That's no secret.

[Lee Sutter]

We are proposing this as an optional cooling device for all Yamato engines. We don't want up upset the Apple Cart (so to speak), were trying to bring the latest Yamato engine into use. Very few 321's are currently being used and we are thinking about our future. Oh, in 20ssh and CSH no 321's were raced at the Stock Nationals. In OSY-400 no 321's were raced the UIM World Championships or USTS National Championships. I wonder why? They don't cool!

[stockc]

Around 18,000 views and over 300 posts between the two threads could indicate a real problem here. Clearly there are racers of Yamato's who are able to cool, but their presence neither invalidates nor disproves there are also those who are unable to do so.

My cooling status is such, minus one heat last year I ran ALL classes at 3/4 deep. CSH and OSY generally slightly below 400 degrees. 20SSH, may have finished a handful of heats less than 400, but commonly well above that. Many times backing out off to avoid sticking it. I should be able to race the competition for three laps, not race my temp gauge to 400 plus.

It seems parity enters most every debate related to Yamato's. I suggest that the ability for everyone to adequately cool their motors is a valid parity item, and the clear discrepancy remedied.

Ken

[Lee Sutter]

Charlie, Please tell us more as my boat tests don't indicate any problem. On a dyno test a new 321 did not have more power than the 302 either. Help us.

[Big Don]

Didn't intentionally leave Sidewinder out, it just does not have a water pumping issue that I am aware of.

[Matt Dagostino]

Big Don...........fact is the SORC approved a uncompetitive 'Motor of Choice' due to cooling issues and has a obligation to FIX IT. IF cooling our Yamato products down the road shows a 'parity issue' which is at best debatable at this point, convene the SORC parity or competition committee's and deal with it then after a year of racing and data gathering. All this talk about the 321 being faster than the 302 etc etc is relative team to team. The formal data used to approve the engine provided by Joe Pater shows the engines being about equal. Or is the SORC backing away from that data? Maybe pull the 321 from competition in all non 300ssh classes for a few years and let the SORC try to appoint a credible test team to present a solution other than what our team has proposed? But please SORC, have a answer in LA to the heating issue and not just a bunch of reasons why this cooling solution shouldn't be implemented ......

[Big Don]

Matt your're entailed to your opinion but honestly I'm tired of listening to your rant about how the SORC screwed up and approved the 321. You would have been the first person on here complaining how it's the only available engine from Yamato and how could we not approve it. It was approved, deal with it. Pater did test it and had no overheating issues with it. But hey guess what, what we learned is Pater can also run his 302 at 1/2 inch and not have overheating issues most of the time. Maybe, just maybe Joe has it figured out better than the rest of us, maybe just maybe it has something to do with his boat vs other boats? Maybe just maybe, Joe works at it harder than the rest of us and that is why he can run at 1/2?

Maybe the data did not show everything, no one foresaw the potential issue. No one asked Joe to look for it either. The SORC is addressing now that we are aware that it's a concern, what else would you like? Maybe it does not pass, who knows. You have been on the SORC and you are fully aware how some of these things can go. Maybe you should jump back on the SORC and not just ***** about them? You also know you can test and test and test, but then you realize that something else comes into play and throws a wrench into everything.

BTW...Maybe I can talk Reed into driving down and helping you test if you would like?

As for Paters data...now that he has had his 321 for a year...na never mind, he probably does not want me sharing it.