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In a post here I said there are two easy ways of adjusting parity if needed. I left out a third one ! The only class people seem to be worried about is 20ss. If the 300 series engines go too fast in 20ss, besides adding weight or lowering prop height, we can also change the 0.438 dimension on the restrictor to 0.430 or something. These are all supper easy to change if needed. We now have a "Motor of Choice" in classes where it generally can not compete without over heating. We need to fix this first and make other adjustments as needed after.
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Big Don and Pav are right. Parity must be considered, but BEFORE we bounce down that path, let's get them cooling at legal depths. If we adopt the tube and then IF the 321 comes along and trounces everything in 20 and CSH, THEN we can work out parity. I would assume that some speed tests would be conducted anyway after the fact to be sure.
The thing is, HP is HP. The 321 'supposedly' (according to the factory) makes the same HP as the 302. Yeah, the RPM and torque curves are a little different, so that ultimately means a change is needed somewhere else to make proper use of that HP...and in our case, that change is primarily in the prop. If we assume for a second that the HP is indeed the same, then I would expect the same prop to perform differently on a 302 than it does on a 321 because of the RPM and torque differences. A 321 owner is going to be chasing a different prop set up than a 302 owner, but if the HP is the same, the 321 driver does not have an advantage in any way (and arguably has a potential detractor if the pick up tube knocks off a few tenths of a MPH).
Also, it's arguable that a 321 is a fresh new engine. Comparing its performance to a used 302 might not be apples to apples. Not saying it isn't, but that's a technical factor to be considered.
Regardless, the entire point of this tube thing is to fix the cooling issue. The engine is relatively useless in anything except 300 without a fix. The fact it is now the only new Yamato available mandates that fix IF we want a new engine going forward for the other Yamato classes as well.
The guys working on the tube are going to the SORC with their data and suggestions. If you disagree, then contact your rep. We can go that route and let the SORC decide. We could also ask for it to be put up for a vote and let all the drivers decide, but one or the other a decision has to be made.
Dane Lance
700-P
CSH/500ModComment
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Ah, I rather think all the racers are my good friends :-) I know we all go back and forth in here, but to me that shows passion and that's a good thing. I'd rather see people tearing up the forums than having a 'whatever' attitude.
Besides, all this stuff pretty much goes away at the course and everyone is usually smiling and having a great time. -
You are right! My son reminds me when I get all spooled up over an issue: We all just race little wooden boats, how serious can it be?
Ram4x4, you should sign with your real name, your logical approach is earning you a very good reputation. Let us all know your name too!
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I don't think the 300ssh committee thought about the possibility that the Japanese are running different props in stadium series with the 321 then the 302....I would go out on a limb and say I doubt it. I don't think they are super worried about performance stats....I bet they just want all of the boats to run very close to the same speed. I could be 100% wrong though.....a quick aside. I think most people know that there does not seem to be any cooling issues with the 321 in 300ssh.Comment
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I guess it wouldn't be too hard to get one of each and do some measurements. If they are different then I'd think some sort of common variance would be noticeable. If there are differences then wheewww boy, the SORC has another issue to look into. But....right now I think the whole cooling thing needs to be handled first. One thing at a time.Dane Lance
700-P
CSH/500ModComment
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Dave,Originally posted by daveracerdsh View Post
Watching video from the stadium racing I see a lot differences than how our races and boats are.
Boats looked like mostly a runabout , motor was much deeper than any hydro.
What depth do they actually run?
# of boats in heat, I saw
6-7.Having ran at back I know the aerated foamy water very well in a 10-12 boat field.
Also haven't seen any water psi readings?
Bass pro fisherman run jack plates and push the limit until the psi drops or shows 0, then they bump it until it shows magic #.
I bet a hose zip tied to to the transom like a live well pickup would be equally as effective as the finely machined items above but we always need another part to fab or buy.
Wanting to move up in class but watching this cooling issue closely.
Tim M 43-RComment
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Since this water pickup tube is a " non speed advantage " item, Why should apba need to be involved with the design? It's no different than a steering bar or a kick out bracket.
I'm sure they would be readily available from Machined Components, BTM, and other shops, but there are a lot of us that like to build our own parts too.Maroney RacingComment
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Over the last 20 years we have seen new motors introduced in nearly every stock class. Never has there been such a push to have a new motor so soon after the previous one went out of production. Always new motors have been introduced with a probationary period. These precedents have been ignored here. The simple solution would be for the SORC to put a probationary designation on the 321 and offer an apology to the handful of people who this effects. The SORC could easily assist these people in reselling their motors back to 300 drivers if they choose. Further rash action will not remedy this mistake, it will only compound it. The 300 class is affecting participation in CSH already, do we want to chance killing our most competitive class?
Let me also remind you all: At least two boat builders (Hemp, Runne) were able to get their 302s pumping at 0'' height. Repeat: 302 pump at ZERO.
Has anyone tried moving the transom back with a 321? We had a 27 degree transom to pump at zero height with a 302. Placed fifth in the Nationals in 2000 with this setup. Afterwards we developed afterplanes that allowed us to move the motor back in. There are other options here.Last edited by ryan_4z; 12-02-2016, 10:35 AM.Ryan Runne
9-H
Wacusee Speedboats
ryan.runne.4@gmail.com
"Imagination is more important than knowledge"--Albert Einstein
These days, I find it easier to look up to my youngers than my elders.Comment
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Somewhere on this long thread some one asked what psi is in a pick up tube like we use. If the tube were just dragged in the water like the old Keller Speedometers at 65mph it would typically be 61psi. Since our cooling tube is in the prop wash the speed of the water hitting it is likely higher than the speed of the boat so that would tend to increase the pressure. But our pick up tube is not a static tube because the water does not just hit it and back up, it flows into the tube so that will lower the pressure some. So, I think it is a fare guess to say it is around 61psi.
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Ryan,
I do agree with you that the Model 321 Yamato was pushed through and approved without a probationary period or class (reference to C2H per Model 302 Yamato.) Because of this, owners of this engine are now experiencing overheating nearly EVERY time they drive the engine in CSH or 20ssH.
Considering that the first year has passed since approval, and a problem has arisen, why not make ONE change to the engine (the cooling tube), wait a year and THEN assess how the tube has affected parity and performance.
I believe that only the 20ssH class will experience any change parity or performance. CSH should remain the same, but more people will be able to use their 321 engines outside of 300 hydro. I believe that is a good thing.28-RComment
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Even if this is allowed, wouldn't a probationary period make sense? There would then be no cause for anyone to worry about 321 dominance while parity is worked out.Ryan Runne
9-H
Wacusee Speedboats
ryan.runne.4@gmail.com
"Imagination is more important than knowledge"--Albert Einstein
These days, I find it easier to look up to my youngers than my elders.Comment
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Yes. Always, for every motor this has been the process. It is in our rule book.
And, I will add: When we got into the Sidewinder game we understood that there was development to be done yet. That is always the case with a new motor and anyone who buys these motors, all veteran racers, should be prepared to commit to some development and not expect the SORC to 'level the playing field' when no one knows yet where level will be for these motors.Last edited by ryan_4z; 12-02-2016, 02:37 PM. -
Probationary rules are on Page 27 Section 16 under Administration in the Stock Outboard rulebook buried on the APBA website. Go to resources on the home page then scrol to rule books then scrol to Stock Outboard then click on general rule book and not technical rules. Makes for fun reading......NOT.
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What is the rationale behind the assertion that the 321 will dominate the world if allowed to cool? Virtually every part of the power head and carb are identical with the 302, minus the carb cover and a couple of what appear to be cosmetic changes to parts related to its mounting. On paper, it seems one could not ask for a scenario that would be less likely to cause any parity issues.
Could someone explain the details of how a probationary period works?
Thx.
KenComment
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The fact is: no one will know until we see some development of the new motor in the established classes. Because of the heating issue this has not happened yet. There are only question marks about this motor.
Probation procedure is outlined in the rule book.Last edited by ryan_4z; 12-02-2016, 02:37 PM. -
Hey Ken has it been so long that you forgot the probation process:
1. Place white X on helmet
2. Start first race on the outside and way back for observation by a Judge or race director to ensure you can handle your boat.
3. Race director comes to you after first race to inform you that you are good to go. (Unless you are Corey. Know one said anything to her so she started like 6 races at the back until I asked her WTH. She said, know told her any different. I said get your arse up there and get a good start for once
4. Where your white X like a badge of honor for 10 races.
5. Remove rookie stripes from helmet and tape them to the first picture you purchased from Pat of you in your first race and hang it on the wall.
The kid does have good cool aid::-)
I knew what you were asking about, just messing around a little.
All good.Last edited by ronronx; 12-03-2016, 09:52 AM.
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The 321 was run by brother Joe at the 2016 Jesup winter Nationals in 20ssh. The setup for the first heat was ½ inch height, same kick out and prop that he would have been run with the 302. The motor did not steam but the temps got close to 400 degrees at the end of the heat. Top speed was the fastest he had ever experienced in the 20 class on the race course, at least 1 MPH faster than the 302 with the same setup. In subsequent heats the height was lowered to ¾ inch with kick out and prop the same as would have been run with the 302. Top speed dropped about 1 MPH or equal to the speed of the 302 set up at ½ inch with no cooling problem.
Testing the 20ssh at home verified the Jesup numbers i.e. the 321 runs a minimum of 1 MPH faster than the 302 with the same setup. Some 321 testing was done with the C hydro at home. The results were the 321 was at a minimum 1 MPH faster than the 302 and the fastest speed he ever recorded with the C hydro on Paw Paw Lake with Joe’s “test” propeller.
We have performed tests of setting the transom back 2 to 3 inches with good results for improved motor cooling. There are other set ups Joe plans to test in the next two weeks which will be reported.
We also have reliable information that the 321 performs at LEAST 1 MPH faster on the runabout with the same setup that would be used with the 302.
Some of the posts above question the 321’s ability to run faster than the 302. I believe answers to that question may lie in the 321 exhaust tuning. There is an abundance of info on the internet about 2 cycle engine tuning with exhaust pipe design. A low exhaust pressure is not always the best for 2 cycle engines. The important item is the pressure pulses in the exhaust system. Check out the internet for info.
As stated in my previous posts, I am an advocate for leaving the rules as they are in the 20ssh class because of parity. The 321 should run reliably about ¼ inch below what the 302 can run in the same water conditions. This creates parity for the two engines.
A proposal that lowers all Yamato engines in the 20ssh class to ¾ would make the 321 to motor of choice among the Yamatos and could possibly make the Sidewinder the motor of choice for the 20ssh class. Even with a water pickup, people will push the envelope and cause engine problems.
Adding a water pickup to the system opens up a whole new ball game. We have tested the water pick system being used by the East and West coast and believe there are parity and possible other problems with that system.
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Objective data documents an overheating problem. Therefore we respectfully disagree. We have developed another part that should resolve any potential issues. Testing today and tomorrow. Anybody want our PowerPoint presentation, let us know.Last edited by Lee Sutter; 12-03-2016, 08:58 AM. -
Stockc – The 321 testing was with the 321 powerhead and midsection. Our experience is that the 321 with a head milled to 20ssh and ‘C” specifications is about 1 MPH faster than a race prepaired 302. In the 300 class, check the record books and talk to the drivers and I believe you will get info that confirms the 321 is quicker.
GrandpaRacer – My intention with the above post was to provide information that supports the point of view that the 321 is faster than the 302 when set up identically. The difference is the 321 is self-limiting on height in the 20ssh class and therefor 302/321 parity is maintained in the 20ssh class. Conclusions drawn from this information, in my opinion, indicates any change to rules about external water pickups need to address parity simultaneously.
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I'm good with the 321 going to a probationary period if that's the rules, but make the tube allowable for all Yamatos first. Mainly to get the 321 to cool without having to rebuild the back ends of boats or other time consuming and/or expensive options. Since the tube is reported to cause a slight speed loss, there should be no concern about a 302 driver using one in any of the other classes.
Parity absolutely must be looked at, but let's fix the cooling first.Dane Lance
700-P
CSH/500ModComment
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The 321 is not a new motor and not mandated to have to go through a probationary period i believe.....the 300 series motors started with the 302 many years ago.Yamato has been updating the engine for a decade but the upgrades were subtle the changes were barely noticed. However this newest upgrade on the latest model 321 are major and have generated a major 'heated' discussion to sat the least..........the SORC i imagine could have tabled the motion to accept the model 321 until further testing was done but that was not done. This conversation is going sideways but it is a interesting sidebar. Maybe the SORC by the rulebook was mandated to vote on approving the upgraded Model 321???? Interesting question that my favorite lawyer could answer if he comes out of hibernation soon??.....
Last edited by Matt Dagostino; 12-03-2016, 11:39 AM.
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Why do we care if some can cool there motors while others can't? Bottom line is there is motors out there that cool better than others, no one should need to worry about getting water. Its great to hear pater and other top racers are able to cool their motors, but who cares? I have a good running CSH and it has taken a lot of work to figure out how to get water. But reality is there are a lot of people that want to just go boat racing on the weekends, have a good time, hang out with friends and don't need to be the best in the world. We need to keep those guys involved otherwise there won't be anyone to race against. Top racers able to cool means nothing. That has nothing to do with this discussion. It has everything to do with the new racer and keeping people involved and grow the sport. No matter what happens the same guys are going to win. They are the ones that work there butts off for that extra advantage. They enjoy working in their garage just as much as racing their boats. The racer in the middle of the pack having a great time shouldn't have to worry about sticking his motor. Who cares if the 321 is a little faster or a little slower, that's the only Yamato available. Maybe the 321 is faster than an 80 at 1/2". So what, again the 321 is the only Yamato available. Cool the **** motor and let's go boat racing. If the 321 kicks ass, oh well, that's the new motor, looks like I'll need to save my pennies.Nathan Adams 65RComment
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Voice your opinion formally to every member of the SORC.......there contact info is on page 2 of Hydroracer under 2017 SORC Commissioners posted by Commissioner Nichols. Write to every Commissioner and the Chairman and be heard.
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