Tweet
You better go a lot lower than 1" to stop over heating. Add a water pick up because the only reason this is not an issue in Japan racing is because the 321's WHOLE lower unit is under water so they never have heating issues.
-
sigpicWayne DiGiacomo -
Why would we allow a hundred different designs/variables in a water pick up tube???? So then we could have MORE speculation and conspiracy theories about what works/who has more time/money to spend on testing water tubes? Take all the variables out of the equation. LOWER the barriers to entry. Make life EASIER for the new guy and for everyone. Isn't that part of the Stock Outboard mantra? Order the tube, bolt it on the engine and go. Same for everyone. I spend enough time at the river testing all the other variables. Various Dimenions/depth/etc.. on water tubes? REally?
Comment
-
adamallen, I think I've made it pretty clear where I stand. I don't like adding the water pick up tube and I don't like dropping the classes to 1 inch or lower. But if we are going to have them, I want the ability to change the pick up tube to whatever I think would work best for me on our rig. I don't want a 1/2 wide tube dragging behind me if I don't need it.
Then again, we have not had any issues with pumping. Maybe we just don't run it and let everyone else drag a 1/2 rod behind them. I bet if Dana and Pater did that, our 80 would be back in the hunt.
As for outsmarting Holt, Pater, Lewis... I can live on a hope and dream.
-
-
When are we going to see the test data?"Ask anyone, I have no friends. I do have some people that put up with me and mostly because they like the rest of my family"
Don AllenComment
-
Big Don...........i have been in touch with SORC Chairman Brewster and i assume he will be giving the SORC the data soon to discuss in your private chat room you guys have. We have our final data and Sutter, Adams Lewis, McMurphy etc are finalizing their fancy charts and graphs. We have a draft powerpoint presentation almost done which Sutter and Adams are quarterbacking. With the Thanksgiving Holiday we are shooting for early next week to have info complete for Jeff. Then we will post it here on Hydroracer for all to evaluate. Happy Thanksgiving.
-
-
In respect to the water-tube pick-up, I've suggested that two proposals were written up for presentation:
1. "aft of the prop shaft" (or similar) is used when describing where a pick-up tube can only go.
OR
2. Any means necessary to obtain water.
As much as I want #2 to go into effect, I think what Dana eludes to is correct (sans the one MFG) - we shouldn't need to be testing where a pick-up tube needs to go to gain more speed.
John.
Comment
-
Dana has a point, but....what if we had a "recommended" manufactured pick up tube that is proven to work (i.e. something the new guys can buy, bolt on and go with no worries), but if drivers want to do their own thing, let them (it's their engine, if they want to chance burning it up, so be it). I would also not make the tube mandatory for the same reasons. Realistically I doubt there is some crazy pickup tube set up that someone spending hours testing and playing with is going to magically hand them an extra MPH or two over the designated setup kit (especially considering my points below).
I would suggest writing the rule as something along the lines of "Water pick up tubes may be used on all Yamato engines running in the Stock category with the following caveats:
1. The pickup tube may not exceed X inches in diameter.
2. Mounting brackets/tubes must be mounted only to the top portion of the cavitation plate (to avoid any funky attempts to create a reshaped plate to
change water flow, or some weird mounting points somewhere else on the boat).
3. Tubing from the pick up may only be plumbed into the rear port of the engine (no drilling/tapping into any other portion of the tower or powerhead).
Nothing against Tietze, but if that set up were to be the only allowed one then you've created a marketing monopoly for that company. That's something I'm not in favor of.
The only other potential that I think might need to be addressed is wording for 300SSH. It is legal to run a sealed motor in CSH by simply raising the engine up to legal depth and putting on a different prop. Doing so pretty much necessitates the cooling solution, so holes are needed. I don't really think having a couple holes in the cavitation plate is going to make a difference in 300SSH, but for someone looking to run both on a sealed motor, it definitely provides that option.
Dane Lance
700-P
CSH/500ModComment
-
Am I the only one who remembers those old Keller speedometers that quitting working when you hit a piece of drift wood? These pick up tubes look to be the same deal. And since we are all in to modifying the Yamato's, why hasn't a nose cone been tested yet? And don't say because of cost - we all know we spend tons of Ben Franks looking for 1/2 mph. And don't say because it would be modifying the class because that train left a long time ago. If we are planning on fixing the "problem" then why are we not fixing it. Copy the specs for the gear foot right out of the "other" tech manual and move on.Brian 10sComment
-
Brian.............the tube is above the water line not being dragged in the water. It depends on 'propwash' to feed the water into the tube. It works like a firehose. I attached a pic in previous posts. I couldn't believe how much water the prop kicks back. But to your point in the 1970's many of us wanted the Yamato PRO racing foot made legal on the Model 80! Had we done that we wouldn't be having these cooling discussions 40 plus years later!!...Last edited by Matt Dagostino; 11-23-2016, 04:04 PM.
-
-
What do the current MOD boats that are running pickup tubes do when they hit a piece of driftwood?
Dane Lance
700-P
CSH/500ModComment
-
...........the pick up tube is not in the water!! Look at the picks posted from previous post.Last edited by Matt Dagostino; 11-23-2016, 04:06 PM. -
My friend dig hit drift wood with his mod C and stuck his engine. In this proposed stock modification the original hole is still there, so there is a small amount of redundancy not in a mod motor. John Adams
-
-
No one I know of runs a pickup tube. We all run nose cones on the gear foot.Joe Silvestri
CSH/500MH
Dominic Silvestri
JH/JRComment
-
Here is another pic of the Tietze prototype...............note it is out of [ATTACH=CONFIG]n451121[/ATTACH] the water and not subject to driftwood or trash in the water.
Comment
-
Adam..........this is a process. Our team is carefully taking this one step at a time and will address all the points mentioned. One point you may have missed is Lee Tietze is involved as the possible manufacturer. Our first step is to make sure the concept works in the field. It does. Now we are moving into the next steps. This is being done carefully by experienced people and all data will be turned over to the SORC for consideration soon. Our goal is to come to the SORC with a turnkey solution. All the great points brought up on Hydroracer are helpful and useful. The main issue is to cool the motors and we have done that........the details will be worked out soon on the logistics of inspection, specs, manufacturing etc etc.Last edited by Matt Dagostino; 11-23-2016, 02:39 PM. -
Adam, stuff can get stuck in a stock pick up too. The proposal would be optional to use.
Ram4x4, our data proves your point, they do slow down as they get hotter. I posted a graph showing this even at CHTs in the 330 range.
-
-
Would this go to the Drivers or be made rule by the SORC?Comment
-
Adam...........are you sipping the good stuff again. I want some too! As the man in Wisconsin says RELAX. All these questions will be addressed over the next two months. All good questions and questions that will be addressed as the process moves along in conjunction with the SORC. The good news is phase one is complete and the external pick up works and is simple. Phase 2 is in the works. Our team will be providing updates along the way here on Hydroracer and to the SORC. The powerpoint presentation being worked on is cool and concise with the final test data. That should be released to the SORC and here on Hydroracer next week when we finalize it.The questions you put out there are being discussed.!!Last edited by Matt Dagostino; 11-23-2016, 02:55 PM.
-
The attached photo is a Mychron data graph of RPM(red), speed(blue) and CHT(green) from a recent test run with the 321 tower and 302 power head. You can see the CHT rising with each run and interestingly at the same time the speed was dropping. It is important to note that we stopped this run before it got too hot so we didn't smoke our motor, as we had more testing to do. This was at 3/4 inch prop height and I think we stopped around 350 degrees.
John Adams
Comment
-
I don't understand what the big deal is. Here are the facts as I know them for 20ssh.
1) Y-80 can run at 1/2" max
2) Y-102 can run at 1/2" max
3) Y-302 can run at 1/2" but I have been told about 5/8" is it
4) Y-312 can run maybe at 3/4" but 1" is the safer bet
As things are, if I was looking at this and wanted to run 20ssh, I wouldn't choose a Y-312. In fact, I wouldn't recommend anyone buy a Y-312 for anything except 300ssh or a runabout.
Pretty sorry when the only new, available engine can't be recommended for the two largest classes in APBA.
now for some fun
1) Y-312 is considerabley faster
2) Y-312 gains a significant advantage when it cools properly
3) water pick up tube adds performance
4) the size of the water tube enhances performance
5) the depth of the water tube adds performance
6) the attack angle of the water tube can be manipulated to add performance
7) all overheating issues are because operators are stupid
8) overheating is good for engine life
9) if you overheat, your using the wrong oil
10) you must cut the airtraps to avoid overheating
11) you must change the transom angle of your boat
12) you must change the set back of the motor
13) you are using to too much rake on propeller
14) you are not using enough rake on propeller
15) you are using too big of a propeller
16) you are using too small of a propeller
17) the engine timing is too high
I can go on but...
I haven't yet heard an argument that proves cooling the 321 is a performance advantage. And as for stock, is it stock when you can hone the rods, cut the head, shape the lower unit, custom fit rings, cut the sharp edge on ports, deck the block, polish the crank, add a fuel pump, change prop shaft, hone the cylinder clearances, cut access holes on spray shield etc.
This is simple!
TimLast edited by Tim Weber; 11-23-2016, 01:49 PM.Tim WeberComment
-
I've been told by an engineer that the pick up hole is 1/4 inch higher in the 321 and the brass nipple hole is smaller in the 321. It would save everyone if we enlarged the hole in the brass nipple to 5/16", same as the 302 and allow you to lower the snout intake by 1/4 of an inch. Very easy to inspect , much easier than other modification that can be done to the motor. Think about it, we allow you to cut the head which is very difficult to inspect. There could be made a Go-No Go inspection gauge to check size and depth of the hole. A quick fix that doesn't require buying something. The good 302s are beating the 80s even though the 80s can run at 1/2 inch and the 302s are running slightly lower. Matt D. Will be happy if he can run at 1/2 " with his 321. Time will tell if the 321 will put the other motors out to pasture. Disclaimer: we have never qualified for a final CSH natls.Comment
-
See the graphs I showed above, at 3/4 inch the 321 just gets hotter and hotter until it overheats. -
Moving the pickup hole is not easy at all. You need a tig welder, aluminum finishing tools like a long belt sander and the an end mill to redrill it accurately on a tapered surface. I have such tools with about $10,000 in value. We recently did this as a test where we added a hole to a 302 like the 80 has. It did not work when it was tested in a race.
-
That's what really brought all this up. The discussion about growing the sport was heating up (no pun intended), then the 321 came along and is making that prospect difficult.Originally posted by Tim Weber View Post
Like it or not, the 321 is the new and only Yamato available from dealers. If we're OK with telling potential new drivers that 300SSH is the only class you're able to buy new equipment for, so do that and live with it, then that's not going to grow any of the others. If the only way to get into another and be competitive, or even get into it all is to find someone selling a 40 year old engine, that's not going to help grow those classes. We as, a group, are selling 300SSH as the beginner class through the driving schools. We don't try to steer anyone into MOD, we aren't pointing people to 20SSH or CSH. However, that doesn't mean they can't and won't. I went to CSH/20/500MOD because it just so happened I found a boat/engine/trailer package deal that was in my budget (and the whole thing was cheaper than a single sealed engine alone). Sure, some people will do that, but what about the new guy that comes in and wants all new stuff? He gets someone to build a hull and buys a 321 and runs 300. What does he do if he wants to run 20, or CSH? Oops, the 321 overheats there, gotta go find someone selling an old engine.
I understand some are concerned the 321 might suddenly become the engine of choice for several classes, but again, by virtue of the manufacturer, that has already happened to some extent. Based on some of the comments I get the feeling some people would just as soon keep the status quo and would be happy to see the 321 not be viable in their class(es) of choice.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, the cooling issue and parity issues are two different things. Cooling is the paramount one at this point. By all accounts, even the 302 has some issues as well. Fix the cooling simply, cheaply and easily. Once we are all satisfied the Yamatos aren't cooking themselves anymore, then let's see what parity issues, if any need addressed and how.Dane Lance
700-P
CSH/500ModComment
-
I agree with you Ram4x4. Bottom line, the 321 needs to cool. I'm sure the 321 was approved by the SORC assuming it would cool? -
Yes, the 321 has a serious deficiency and the external pick up is the only solution that solves it so far. If there is another solution that has data to show it works for all classes and yet is still compatible with the 300ss class we should hear about it. This solution also solves the long suffering issues we have with the 302 (and 102).
-
The 'cooling team' has posted initial results from our testing over on a separate thread called 'YAMATO COOLING TESTS"...............John Adams summarized the test data to date in the new thread. The full report including the POWER POINT presentation is now in the hands of every elected Stock Outboard Commissioner for review and comment! The bottom line is the simple external system pushes water through the Model 300 Series engines (302-321) like a water pump at any height. The details can be seen in the power point. Contact your SORC rep for details or a copy of the info. Also feel free to contact me or the team via e-mail for copies. Our info is in the new thread. I will try to attach some of the report here but unfortunately most of documents are to big to load here on Hydroracer especially the power point ............................all i could upload are a couple pics and the SORC warning. Ugh. Feel free to e-mail us for copies of the full report . IMPORTANT STOCK OUTBOARD INFORMATION June 20 2016_0.pdfLast edited by Matt Dagostino; 11-28-2016, 09:58 PM.
Comment
Comment