Stock 321 to run 20 without a restrictor at deeper depth (stolen from BOD thread)

[pav225]

Charlie,
I think you make a very good point that there is parity among the motors at this time. I would go further to say that the Y80 is the slowest of the bunch, but you can get them cheap and still be competitive.

If you have them all the same height, I believe we jeopardize pretty good parity in one of our largest classes.

Please think this through before changing any rules.
- Mike

[csh-2z]

I would suggest that we don't make any changes to the height rules. "Just add water"

[Charlie Pater]

John, just watering, would make the 321 the engine of choice.

[csh-2z]

Charlie,

We'll have to cross that bridge when we come to it. Currently we have no data to support that conclusion, and it may be the case. Eliminating the cooling issue for all Yamato models will open the door for improvement for all.

The most important thing is helping new boat racers to not fry their motors just because they want to compete. We should have done this 20 years ago when the problem first occurred with the 302. For all of you veteran drivers out there "don't worry, they still can't match your experience".

[Charlie Pater]

John - Two points:

1. The 321 is quicker in the 300 class per class records and actual races. Ask the 300 drivers.

2. The suggestions in my previous post are based on actual testing. You can choose to believe it or not but it is based on our testing.

[deeougee]

Question? Are these bone stock motors overheating or blueprinted engines? If they are blueprinted I would say that the 321 is really squish band sensitive. If you are shaving the head down you raise the crown temp of the piston and that in turn flames down the piston side and skirt. A lot of you don't realize that your fuel helps cool the cylinder also. So are these blueprinted engines having these meltdowns? Now since you can run any spray shield on the motor I would pull the current one off the motor and test (at least this is how I'm interpreting the rule book). Some guys have run no shield on the 80 and use a deflector before the carb opening. By taking the shield off you would draw more air and fuel into the cylinder to help cool it. That's where I would begin. Now remember people this class was developed from a 20 ci engine. If the Y80 is no longer competitive in this class then I would say we would lose quite a few people and at that point what would be the purpose of even having this class anymore since all the engines running the class would be restricted ones. There are not very many guys running their 20SW in this class either right now. Better think long and hard about this one before any changes to this class are made.

[KURPS]

If I ran Stock, you guys would make me crazy. 166 posts all about water. Just fix the freaken problem!

[Matt Dagostino]

Great post...........we should have fixed it in 1975 when the Yamato 80 first showed up in the USA!! But we were to worried about keeping out Yamato's 'stock' with things like after market prop shafts, mag locks, stearing bars, profiling lower units,kill switches, altering spray shields, cutting the head, extending the gas tanks,replacing ignition leads,running after market points, blueprinting ports, and of course cutting into the case to mount external fuel pumps. All this in a effort to keep our motors stock?? Guess trying to shoot more water into the engines so they would cool properly wasn't considered 'stock'.........

[stockc]

Diddo, great posts the both of you. Lets not overlook boring over sized. Hum.

[GrandpaRacer]

If some 321 owners want to test an external pick up this is all you need to do it. If you do some testing be sure to collect CHT data and share the results.Just bolt it to the cavitation plate and run the hose to an external port above the steering bar.

[KURPS]

Alright you guys just push me over the edge, I'm crazy now!

[csh-2z]

Is there something inherently wrong with being crazy?

[Ram4x4]

I don't suffer from insanity...I enjoy every minute of it.

[reed28n]

How many 321's have been sold to APBA Racers (real complete 321 motors, not someone assembly one from a 302 motor to gain an advantage)?
How many racers have had issues with over heating?
Could we get the names?
How many 321's are currently available for purchase, today?

[reed28n]

So this is what I found
28 - 321's run as purchased for the 300SSH class
3 - 321's converted from 302's for the 300SSH class

no 321's or 302's currently available

[Big Don]

Before this gets too out of hand. I don't believe the comment of, "there are no 321's or 302's available" is accurate. Could be wrong but...

I was under the understanding that the SORC has a few 321's or TJ had some? Jeff Brewster or T.J.????

Scott, where are you going with this? You certainly didn't ask those question without a reason.

[Tim Weber]

So Scotty,

How is a 302 converted to a 321 an advantage over a factory complete 321?

Tim

[reed28n]

I cannot confirm that it is, I just know that people have converted and maybe it was better for them maybe it wasn't.

[hoosier]

Hey Ram , is that a professional opinion concerning your sanity ? At the very least you probably suffer from an Oedipus complex ( knew I'd be a able to use that somewhere ) .

[Ram4x4]

Ha! are you calling me a mother ....er? lol! Nah, I'm in my own little world, but that's ok, they know me there :-)

[hoosier]

Just busting ba--s , can't dislike someone that looks like my favorite movie star ( bad santa )

[Ram4x4]

I do get that a lot. One of the kids that works at the local Subway calls me Billybob. I keep asking when they're going to give me my movie star discount....

[reed28n]

So this post started by a racer wanting to increase the value proposition for the 300SSH drivers and a suggestion that we allow another height and another platform into an already successful class with 4 current motor options. 20SSH - 102, 302, 80 and Sidewinder with different heights and weights.

The conversations and suggestions about machining and external water pick-ups are pre-mature. This motor has been in our market for a little over one year. There have been few suggestions that boats, transom angles, afterplanes, prop pitch, prop rake or trim angle have been exhausted yet. The 302 was thought to have many pumping issues too but we took 102 technology and placed a 302 in its world. Now we have parody with the exception of a couple super 102's which no one ever has any concerns about. There was a height change but that would have been over come, the biggest equalizer was the head dimension change.

A couple racers stated it plainly - we do not have enough data yet to make a change (that will not be repealed). Take back the remaining 302's in the 300SSH class and incent owners to replace them with 321's and keep the 321 as the 300SSH class motor. The sealed motor class was created for the "sealed motor" class. It was never advertized as an outfit that could complete with anything else.

If you want more seat time ask your race comittees to add a day of racing. Many of the 300SSH class racers added this class as another class to race out of their trailer. So, now that stock outboard and kneel down racing has set the hook, it may be time to buy more equipment for more classes.

[GrandpaRacer]

The 321 has just highlighted a basic Yamato problem, cooling. In region 10 there were only a couple 321s raced this summer out of over 30 Yamato racers. Of those 30+, 1/2 had to rebuild their Yamato, nearly all 302s, due to over heating! This is just not good for the Sport.

[Matt Dagostino]

Well said Ram4x4 and Grampa..............the SORC adopted this motor last year with little or no 'cooling' data and now they should either withdraw the engine from competition or come up with a cooling solution that several members are now working on to be presented over the next several weeks to the SORC!! Wouldn't it be nice for all Yamato owners of Model 80, 102, 302 and now 321 engines to be able to never worry about burning up a engine again.....What a novel idea!

[Brian10s]

You can't get a 321 either - TJ doesn't have any and both TJ and Montoya are getting some this winter but they are already sold. Otherwise you are going to Mike Ward and that depends on if he has any or is waiting on his shipment. However, in the last 2 months, there have been several 302's and 102's for sale on this site. The math is real simple - there is not a line out the door to buy the 321's and what little supply is coming into the country is already earmarked for the 300 class. And for you history buffs - the 302 was not considered viable in CSH Nationally for over 10 yrs because it had to run much lower than the 102 to pump. Do not remember anyone jumping up and down back then to make the new motor the choice.
You can talk about growing the sport all you want - you make the 321 (which is not like there are 100 motors sitting in a warehouse) fastest of the Yamato classes, you kill the 2 biggest classes in Stock. Tough to grow the sport by dropping 100 drivers out of the 2 biggest classes.

[ryan_4z]

Scott is right. The 321 should be tested more before being introduced to our most competitive hydroplane classes. The only way to guarantee continued growth for 300ss is to relegate the motor to that class. Which, by the way, is a far better class for new drivers than C stock.

[Matt Dagostino]

Hey Ryan...........problem to me is the SORC has already legalized the Model 321 in CSH-20ssh-CSR-25ssr etc etc and now they have been purchased and folks are trying to support boat-racing by buying and racing them. Kinda tuff now to turn around and legislate them only to 300ssh. I agree with you and Reed more testing should have been done before the SORC approved the engine. However the Model 302 is obsolete and not made by Yamato anymore and we really have no choice but to adopt the Model 321 as it is the engine now being built by Yamato. Kinda interesting but really the only difference with the Model 321 over the 302 is that pesky midsection and 'baffled' air box over the carb to quiet it. All other parts are the same, crank, pistons, rods,..............

[dholt]

The 321 is not totally identical to the 302. And the performance in 300ssH between the two motors makes that more clear. The 3/4mile and 1 mile records were SMASHED this year by 321 engines. And they beat records that were set by the fastest sealed 302s at the time. There's a reason you see people jumbling up parts between the two as well. It's not an accident.

[Ram4x4]

Dana is right, they're not identical. They share a lot of similar parts, but they're not the same. Compare the torque and RPM curves of the 302 to the 321. They aren't vastly different, but they are different.

Seems to me then we now have two issues. Cooling, and parity, neither of which change the fact the 321 is the Yamato engine going forward.

[Big Don]

Unless we say add water but the 321's have to run deeper? 1/4 inch? Not saying that is being discussed, just throwing it out there so we get this as right as we can.

[Matt Dagostino]

FYI................this 'buyer beware' letter was posted on the APBA Website in June 2016 making folks aware of the issue by the SORC Chairman. Looks like some pro-active members out there are taking it upon themselves to try and present the SORC viable solutions to the problem. Thanks to Lee Sutter, John Adams and Lee Tietze for stepping up and offering real solutions to a age old and current problem!

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