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Guess we will just have to agree to disagree............my pushing for the lowering of both the CSH and 20ssh heights for years was to make sure both class engines (80 and 302) 'cooled' with no special props or boats etc etc. at the class height. Also i was always in favor of helping the new available motor (Yamato 302) be more competitive and survive at a manageable height of 3/4inch. I am not so concerned about the few mororheads that have 'figured it out' but more concerned about the average Joe (pun intended) not burning up motors. I am sure i am wrong here but i think keeping a engine cool should not be part of the racing formula. A engine should cool period and then let the trick boats and props come into play. Yes we are trying a Yamato 321 and getting into the 21st century. We also can run our Yamato 80 all day long at 1/2" just for the record but that's not the issue here. As far as the Sidewinder i didn't mean to infer it got approved because of Yamato 80 issues. But it did slide in there and i for one do not agree with it in our 20ssh class..........hope you get on the commission, they need experienced guys that think about the good of the sport and not just their trailer boxes.
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Has anyone asked the SORC what kind of data they would like to see before considering any changes to 20ssH?
We have scattered bits of testing, but let's ask the SORC for a plan on how to help them make a decision.
The last thing we want to do is make a big change to one of the most popular classes without providing good information...
There seems to be good parity now, how does that change with any of the proposed changes?Comment
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What is the purpose of the 20ss class? I thought it was intended to be a transition to C class. This seems logical, but with a lighter weight and 1/2 height it can be as fast as the average C. Should this be so?
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John..............when that Model 80 was introduced in 1974-75 it cost $395 in the box........it caught on like a wild fire. Dependable, easy to work on, and at the time fairly stock and close to each other. It took on a life of it's own and to this day 20ssh with the addition of the model 302 and now the model 321 remains the 2nd largest class in APBA just behind CSH. In modern times it is really cool that drivers can switch back and forth from CSH to 20ssh with a simple restrictor plate. That's bang for your buck in my eyes and gives our members more water time and as Big Don says clubs get more enteries! -
I forgot the history of the class. Actually I bought one of those y80s in 1979. We took 17 years off racing and some of that history is foggy. So the 20ss just evolved over the years, I got it. Thanks. John Adams
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The problem combining both classes is the old problem we have with everything. The local clubs will lose entries since they are for the most part the same drivers. We struggle as it is for entries which is why we keep every class, and run multiple categories.
Then throw in the problem that most run both to get more time on the water...this is the dilemma we are in."Ask anyone, I have no friends. I do have some people that put up with me and mostly because they like the rest of my family"
Don AllenComment
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Combining classes, getting rid of classes, etc is a completely different can of worms. Right now we need a viable cooling solution for the Yamatos, especially the 321. Like it or not, it is the engine going forward as the 80's, 102's and 302's will ultimately become niche engines and only run by those who own them in the future.
If we can't provide a reliable engine for all new drivers coming into the sport then how do we expect to grow the sport overall?
I went through driver's school, loved it. I was hooked. I drove several other boats last year because of the graciousness of a few owners. Happy, happy! Had a blast. Bought my boat at the end of the season with a 102 and decided to run CSH. I know 300 is the class that is promoted for newbies, but for me it came down to cost. I bought my rig (boat, motor and trailer) for less than the cost of a sealed 302 alone. People will make decisions based on $$$ as not everyone has the means to pony up for a 300 rig, or multiple engines and boats all at once.
I raced my boat this season in CSH, 20 and 500mod. Had a blast. It was not until the 321 came around that I ever even heard about any cooling issues with Yamatos. No one ever said 'Be careful trying different props, etc, the Yamatos can overheat.' As a new guy, I'd have been really pissed had I cooked my engine and THEN found out 'Oh yeah, gotta watch the cooling on that engine.' A new driver might be inclined to seek out a different class/rig with that knowledge, or possibly decide they don't want to risk their $$$ on the sport as a whole if there's a chance it'll burn up.
The situation with the Yamatos is just unacceptable, really. I know a couple of folks are trying some things, but have any of the results given anyone a warm fuzzy that it's the answer for all set ups?
As our Chairman has pointed out, this entire issue is not on any agenda as of yet. That means, hopefully, at some point it will be in the near future. That also means less time to discuss and look at solutions. Hopefully something gets decided in time for everyone to make any changes to that end before race season starts next year.Last edited by Ram4x4; 10-25-2016, 05:07 AM.
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We need to keep 20ssH and CSH separate. Both are great, highly competitive, classes with lots of participants.Comment
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This discussion is pretty straight forward to me.
Come up with a SOLUTION that keeps the 321 at an appropriate temperature! THE new,available motor needs to be plug and play. If lowering the legal height for all motors is the answer, external pick up, whatever, make the dam* thing work! That goes for all the classes the 321 is legal in.
There will be more data forth coming from hydro guys soon. I have confidence the SORC will do the right thing.
TimTim WeberComment
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Lowering legal height would not achieve the equivalent cooling results across the board. Evidence of this is the current state of Yamato classes where it is common practice that the height we individually run is limited to whether we can cool the motor or not. I stuck a 302 motor this year at 3/4" deep in 20ssh, where a few others may be able to run at 1/2". This is a ridiculous problem that should not exist. We should be spending our time and resources testing props, set ups etc. not wasting them on futile attempts to get enough water to the motor thru a little pee hole. This is not just a 321 problem, allowing a water pick up on all Yamato's will ensure we can go racing without ANY concern of overheating, maybe spend more time paying attention to the racing than the mychron. Therefore it could improve safety, racer satisfaction, significantly reduce repair expenses and missed heats/races due to rebuilding stuck motors.
KenComment
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Addendum: Let the record reflect a mute detail. I was actually running a tick high of 3/4". A first heat win where the ole mychron had tapped out at about 380 degrees. Then back in the pits word trickled down that I had surprisingly ran quite close to the record. With no expectation of that, I succumbed to a bit of greed and my better judgement, then to the best of my recollection added one maybe two .9mm metal shims. Equating to 1/32" to 1/16" above 3/4" to which I do not place blame for the stick. The second heat had many jumpers that put me mid pack in really bad water, coupled with the long heat of four laps and five miles, the puny water inlet was/is inadequate. My advocacy for allowing a water pick up is not based on this particular/latest incident,
more so the chronic nature of this problem for so many Yamato racers. I clearly remember my first race was at Eatonville around 5 yrs. ago, multiple people were graciously coming up to me letting me know that I was overheating and offering advice. And I recall thinking to myself then, what the hell is up with that, its about 60 degrees and raining, and I'm riding around on millions of gallons of water.... Now years down the road, perplexed, still scratching my head, thinking what the hell is up with this.
KenComment
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Should have let the caffeine kick in before I posted this morning. It was my first race at Eatonville, which was a matter of weeks after my very first race that took place at Moses Lake. At Moses it was 100 plus degrees outside, and yes I was overheating there also, but as a newbie I wrote it off to the heat. Thanks to Sean Bryne for letting me borrow a power head Sunday to keep me racing.
Ken
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I run D stock hydro with a Tohatsu that has a water pump...and even with that in rough race conditions the motor can heat up. I look at the crap that Yamato owners have to go thru just to make it thru a race weekend and just cringe. Really...this is affordable stock racing? Who cares how racers cool their motors....this is not about cooling motors, this is about racing. Pisses me off....Comment
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So I've talked to a few people on both side of this issue. Some think we should do nothing and some think we should allow pick up tubes and/or lower the engines.
Here is what I would like to see if I'm on the commission next year.
Most of us know there is a lot that goes into being able to pump well enough to keep the engine from overheating. Some of those things are boat design, boat set up, weight distribution, where a driver sits in the boat, prop shape, etc.
We can have Joe Pater, Dana Holt, John Peters test all day long. What needs to happen if we truly are going to react to this, is have drivers who are having pumping issues test some alternatives and get back to us.
I'll use Val/Matt as my example. I've been told that last weekend you may have been having pumping issues. First thing is just because there is steam does not mean you are in the 400 degree area. But let's assume you are, maybe you had a temp gauge in and know how hot it got. We need to take that rig and put the water pick up tube on it, test it to make sure it really fixes the issue. Then we also need other rigs that are having the issue do testing and make darn sure this fixes it. The last thing I want to do is make a change and then find out the same rigs are still having the issue and we are re-addressing it again.
I will also say, I'm not in favor of putting a water pick up tube on AND lowering heights at the same time. I can come around to having to do something but I'm not going all in and doing both.
So Matt what is it going to take to get you guys to do some testing with the water pick up tube? How about some others? We don't have an issue as we don't run 302 or 321's, so us testing is pretty much useless plus we'll have ICE in a few days.
"Ask anyone, I have no friends. I do have some people that put up with me and mostly because they like the rest of my family"
Don AllenComment
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Already underway.............we should be on the water before Thanksgiving with a East Coast external kit courtesy of John Adams and Lee Sutter. They will also be doing testing with their Yamato 321 out West and furnishing the data to Chairman Brewster. I have submitted our Yamato 321 testing data from a October test weekend in cold conditions here in Maryland along with the data we gathered at Tabor City over two days of racing to Chairman Brewster and our local SORC Commissioners. Jerry Davids was present and in charge for the session. I was in charge of lunch.It will be interesting to see if this external pick up is all it is advertised to be. Oh, and we do have a Digetron temp gauge and yes it is in the boat. Val was approaching 400 degrees and had to get off plane every heat after one lap while at 3/4th inch in 20ssh! We lowered it to 7/8th-one inch and were in the 370-380ish temp range still steaming but she was able to finish at those heights. She was in front water every heat when the overheating occurred. It appears initially to us that due to that baffle system (even with the large 302 exhaust nipple which we have been using from the outset) that the backpressure is so great that what little water is getting to the engine is basically getting pre-heated and not cooling! Seems it needs much more water to function at the heights we are asking it to run at. It will be interesting to see how the external water supply works..... i agree with you that one or the other needs to happen, either a water pick up or drastically lower the class heights to keep the motor alive.Last edited by Matt Dagostino; 11-02-2016, 05:43 PM.
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Don, Matt did have a temp gauge in the boat with an alarm. I'm not sure at what temp the alarm was set for, but I know Val didn't finish more than 1 or 2 heats all weekend. In my opinion, the external water pick-up should solve the problem. If so, I would make it legal on all Yamato's for all classes and leave all transom heights as they are.
John RunneComment
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Matt,
Did you guys run a temp guage?
It's been a while since Physics, but steam doesn't necessarily mean the motor is too hot. Water steams at 212F while Yamatos can run 400F. Sure you would have to calculate heat transfer from inside the cylinder to the water passage to determine how hot cylinder actually is when the motor steams...blah, blah, blah....So, much easier if you ran a temp gauge.
Don, I hate to admit it, but that's a very good idea.Comment
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Mike.......per my comments above to Big Don yes we did use a high dollar Digetron new temp gauge for testing and in the races. Val was told to shut it down if it climbed above 390 degrees. We did not want to burn it up.We set the beacon for 400 degrees but Jerry David's did not want her to push it to that temp so she shut it down after it crossed 390. It got hot and hotter every lap.
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Thanks for clarifying Matt.Comment
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I knew we had discussed this issue before. After perusing the minutes from the 2007 National meeting in Los Angeles. I made the motion to allow an external water pick-up on all Yamato motors. There was no second. Coincidently, that was also the year that we approved the 3/4" transom height for CSH.Comment
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Suggestion:
Say we have the objective of maintaining parity for the 80, 302, Sidewinder and provide an option for the 321 to be in parity while being able to cool the engine. Secondly, I believe the 80, 302, and Sidewinder are currently at about the best parity that we can expect to get with the 80 and 302 at ½ inch and Sidewinder at its current height (I believe this has been proven by several years of actual races). Now comes the 321 which many have tested to be a bit quicker than the 80 and 302. Further, testing by several indicates that the 321 at ¾ inch performs at parity with the 80 and 302 at ½ inch. But the 321 has a difficult time cooling at ¾ inch or higher. I believe most can agree on this as a summation of the current situation.
What if all Yamato engines were to be allowed to use a water cooling pickup when operating at ¾ inch or are allowed to run at ½ inch without a pickup? Does that not meet the objective of having parity for all engines in the class, provide for 321 cooling and offer a cooling option for the other Yamato’s if a racer chooses to use a water pickup?
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