Stock 321 to run 20 without a restrictor at deeper depth (stolen from BOD thread)

[Matt Dagostino]

[QUOTE=dholt;n448898]The 321 isn't run in 20ssh or CSH out here because there's really no need. Anyone who wants to run those classes has an 80, 102 or 302. There are motors galore...easier to find one on HR than order new 321 from Japan.

Dana......... weather we like it or not the Model 80, Model 102 and now Model 302 are all out of production and the Yamato Model 321 is the engine now being produced and sold. It should be made to 'push water' and hence be able to compete in the SORC approved classes it is legal in without self destructing at the currently approved engine heights. There have been many ideas put out there and hopefully the SORC is listening and will make the appropriate changes sooner than later since many people prefer to buy new equipment in lieu of someones second hand stuff. As far as buying Yamato's from Japan that is impossible since Yamato only sells through distributors, we ordered a Model 321 from Yamato of Europe (Mike Ward) a few weeks ago and it is being delivered next week. It is actually much easier than buying one off Hydroracer since you have no idea what your getting when you buy another APBA members 2nd or 3rd motor.. Also at the end of the day it works out to be cheaper to deal with Yamato of Europe given the value of the dollar vs. the pound. Heck, they even have a easy to use website that i was able to figure out. As a footnote before you go onto the site the current shipment of Yamato 321's just sold out and a new batch is on the way from Japan! It is important that the Yamato 300ss drivers have a place to move up to with their engines once they are done in the sealed class. Solving this water issue insures that they can move up in class without burning up their engine and would hopefully benefit the older model 302 to pump water better at 1/2" in the 20ssh class.
One of the big Yamato issues i see is who is really the YAMATO importer in the USA nowadays??? While dealing with Yamato of Europe is easy and cheaper it would be nice to buy new model 321 Yamato engines in the good ole USA. Anyone have a update on this one? At one point i know Ric Montoya was the sole importer in the United States?

[dholt]

There's one core issue...and that's how to get the 321 to pump at race heights above 1 3/8".

Matt....see above. It was one of the first lines I wrote in my post.
I recognize the issue and support a solution. That solution just needs to be well thought out and not made rashly...which is the opposite manner of the decision to legalize it in every class beyond 300ssH in 2016.

By the way...why are we allowing parts swapping of the 321/302 already?

[Matt Dagostino]

AGREED..............and i have no idea why the SORC is allowing part swapping. Maybe it is due to lack of new 302 parts???

[guedo499]

There's one core issue...and that's how to get the 321 to pump at race heights above 1 3/8".

Respectfully Disagree; The core issue is, as a stock class, that we even need to worry about cooling in the first place.

Dana, congrats at the Nats again this year in 20, you have your rigged dialed in!

I remember when I started racing 10 years ago and hearing then that a racer had to pull in because he was overheating - it was mind-boggling to me.

However, now, when I see someone pull off or back off in order to cool the motor, it seems commonplace in my mind. I'm thinking out loud if that is the correct way to think about it.... I've never had to pull off with my Merc or OMC's in order to cool the motor.

In response to Swain, could an answer why CSH is not well participated in because of the over-heating issues? Just a convenient -timed thought...

I also really believe the types of courses we race on have an impact. Here on the west coast, a smaller course is a mile. Correct me, but I suspect that the Record Run of a mile is a larger course for a midwest course. When we see racers from the other side of the mountains come over to race at Lawrence for instance, they are always ridiculously fast, but do struggle with pumping as well. Which is better than when we west coasters head east, we usually just get our ass handed to us.

Boats clearly make a difference too. On my Altralight, I can run at 1/4" all day long, our Pavlick only can go to 3/4 even (20 or C) - both of those have very standard tucks of 1/8" if that. My own boat that I've built is my own deal, but I can only pump at 15/16" yet I do realize that is self inflicted by the non-standard hull type.

I bought 16 pistons in the last year: I have 3 left. I've sold 8 of them to other racers at the race site on Saturday night so they can race Sunday. And I've only gone to two races this year.

[Matt Dagostino]

Guido..........i was the culprit that was behind getting the CSH height lowered a few years back to 3/4inch;. In my mind at the time it helped the Yamato 302 be more competitive in CSH as there was no way a 302 could run at 1/2inch consistently and beat the old model 102. Once at 3/4inch; it was amazing how the Yamato 302 got more competitive and very few people had a cooling issue at the new height. Ric Montoya told me the next year his piston sales were almost non existent. I tried the same move in 20ssh a couple years ago to help the 302 cool better but got blasted by Yamato 80 lovers. I agree with you also, we should not have to be worrying about a engine cooling in the Stock Outboard division. As one of the newbies said in another thread, our Yamatos should be able to cool at the heights established in the rule book!! I believe even the top Yamato 302's in 20ssh can't run at 1/2inch consistantly without burning up. That is just wrong!

[Team B&H]

Watching this discussion about heights and cooling for the Yamato motors, it becomes exquisitely clear that height specifications have been changed by the SORC for other-than-safety reasons but they keep theses height specs as safety rules to circumvent the drivers right to vote on all technical rule changes. Big brother government is alive and well and ever expanding.

[Bob Dunlap]

I believe the 321 is a stock engine, when you start cutting and butchering the baffle and adding an external water pickup it becomes a MOD engine! Then you can put a pipe on it and run 500 mod. Lets keep it stock so new guys can come in and run, a lot of new guys only know how to add gas, pull the rope and squeeze the throttle. Do something simple anyone can do like lowering the height.

[Ram4x4]

The only "add gas, pull rope, squeeze throttle" class in existence is 300ssh, and the 321 is NOT suffering heating issues there as many have reported.

I disagree that adding a water pickup makes it a MOD engine specifically because the change would be directly to affect a cooling issue when it is run at the STOCK height requirements. If, for some reason, a water pick up altered the engine's power or performance characteristics, then I would agree, but I don't believe it would.

The choices for fixing this issue, so far involve about three or four that have been suggested:

1. Require height changes - This would require more SORC discussions and meetings, even more testing (i.e. time) and if the historical posts made here are any indication, it might be Christmas of 2030 before a decision gets made and implemented, not to mention the legions of bellyaching over it for the rest of eternity.

2. Drill through or remove the baffle in the 321 tower - destructive, not easy to do, potentially costly, unknown effect on engine performance characteristics.

3. Modify the intake hole - less destructive and fixable if it doesn't work.

4. Add the dang intake tube - least destructive, cheap, reversible, no changes in performance, quickest and easiest to test and a known working solution in other Yamato configurations.

Frankly, I don't understand why this is so difficult.

We've taken a purpose built Japanese racing engine (how is that "stock"?) and are trying to run it at depths it was not designed to run at. The only real meaning the word "stock" has in APBA's eyes is that far fewer modifications are allowed than in the Mod class (I'm allowed to run any prop I want in CSH, that's not stock. I can shave the gear foot, that's not stock, I'm allowed to flatten the exhaust outlet, it doesn't come that way in "stock" form, etc). We can piss up a tree all day long about what defines "MOD" or "Stock" and to a big degree, it's meaningless. Unless we want to toss out Yamatos all together, then just do the simplest thing we can do to fix the cooling and be done with it. The pick up tube does not give any sort of speed or performance advantage...it's a non-issue.

[fishinworm]

I agree a cooling tube is ok as long as everyone can use it and i mean all yamatos ,mercs,omc, or what ever ,make the rule. Its the right move.

[Tim Weber]

I say we all run CSR and eliminate hydros!

I agree with Dana's approach in that we just got this motor and we need to " relax " while we figure this out. Obviously, this 321 will be what we have for quite a while. I'm certain more testing data will be coming with some solutions.

There are a lot of very talented CSH drivers with infinite knowledge on boats, props etc. Maybe, we'll have to add a pick-up or drill the snout but not yet.

Tim

[DtwSailor]

Thank you everyone for playing nice on this thread! I think we all have the spirit of my original post in that I'm proposing we allow the 321 to run in 20SSH without a restrictor at a deeper depth to a) slow down and b) not worry about heating. Of course the 321 is with a shaped graffito and 3 bladed prop. I will offer my 321, boat, prop and entrance fee at Grass Lake and or Big Rapids to a driver if needed. I'm not known for being 1st on the course. shoot me a PM.

[Brian10s]

I will be your Crash Test Dummy at Alex if you want.

[DtwSailor]

Sorry Brian, I'm not going to Alexandria this year. Come to Big Rapids! It's an awesome site!

[ryan_4z]

Well put, Ram. I would like to add, to those of you who complain about stock not being stock. How would you enforce stock specs? A line must be drawn somewhere. In stock that line is much earlier than in mod but still it must be drawn. And when you draw a line, you better believe that racers will toe up to it. There is no other way unless all classes are sealed. Many of you may think this is a good idea. But racing is not just about what you do on the course. It's also about what you do in the garage, and on the practice lake. It's about paying attention to details and being one step ahead of your competitor, and .001 within the rules. Sealed classes may serve a purpose, but they take away from the sport a lot of what makes racing, racing. As far as this issue, an external pickup is not a modification, requires no alteration. It is a bolt-on part. There is a distinct difference. Height rules should be determined for safety purposes and no driver should have to worry about overheating simply because she runs at the designated safe height. Yet, more important perhaps is the simple notion that one should leave well enough alone. As has been pointed out, CSH is beginning to struggle and 20ssH may not be far behind if the SORC doesn't stop making such rash decisions with its biggest classes.

[Charlie Pater]

Ryan - It is information that I probably should not have put out there cuz some may like to keep it confidential, but we do need to have the facts to make good decisions. It is like you said "It's also about what you do in the garage, and on the practice lake".

[guedo499]

Charlie - THANK YOU! And yet, I'm getting the mental visual that you came to the first buoy and then forgot to turn...

What you are " revealing " is making the point all of us are trying to make, and yet you did it even better than us, thank you for that.

Wouldn't it be absolutely fantastic if a Tamato racer did find a faster propeller in their race box? They would be able to use any propeller design, shape, diameter, pitch or rake to make their ride faster and safer* and not have to worry about pumping issues - this is exactly the case is it in ALL the other stock outboard classes, it would be beautiful if we could have such a simple luxury in the Tamato stock classes. Agree?

I go back to the fuel pump add-on that we are allowed to use on the Yamatos - it doesn't make you go any faster, it may help handling, but you have the choice to use it or not to use it. For those racers who what to test and race who have issues pumping, a pick-up won't be making you go faster, it will just allow you to focus on other portions of the boat ride.

[Charlie Pater]

Guedo - I understand your desire for a quick and easy fix to this problem. Imbedded in my comment is the point that, do we want to make a change that very well could increase the speeds of CSH and 20SSH. I believe the speed of the two classes has reached a point where we need to question making a rules change that very well could significantly increase those speeds. Like Dana pointed out, we need to be very thought full about making any rules change and that if rules are changed then we need to base the changes on a well thought out set of criteria.

[guedo499]

Charlie, thanks for the reply. You are correct, I am very interested in creating the easiest, simplistic solution for the situation at hand. If the rule passed tomorrow, every Yamato-running racer can go to their hardware store, get the supplies they need, install and be ready to go race with a pick-up tube in an half and hour or so. That's if the racer even wants to. Remember, there has been a lot of chat by our racers saying they don't have pumping issues, so there is no need for them to add one.

Your concern about boats going faster as a whole, has a high possibility yet should be seen as a bonus, not a detriment to CSH and 20ssh class. The rule of 3/4" is now setup to benefit boat builders, prop builders or people with connections to those people who either have cash to spend, abundant time to test or both. Those people that have the cash and time are already in the front of the pack. I don't anticipate a major increase in speed as they have already figured out how to pump at the legal height. It is the non 2%-ers, the people who want to go and have a fast boat ride on the weekend, the people that may not know how to rebuild a stuck engine and those include new and old racers running any of the yamatos out there including the 321.

The 321 and its pumping problems has given a talking base for a conversation which has been a negative undertone since the 302's arrival so many years ago.

The non 2%-ers, have the most to gain in the addition of a pick-up, not the people that are already in the front.

Another natural limitation of prop design, which translates to speed, for our yamatos is the spout. We can't go over appx 6.8 diameter in prop size. In the 500mh class, which the pick up is being compared to, they don't have that limitation and can go very large with rake and diameter if they so choose.

Next, possible advantage to the pickup is the tuck someone can run. At 3/4" deep, 7/8" of tuck (over 12") the bullet of a Yamato foot is out of the water. There is a definite straight-line speed increase when that much tuck is tested; however, overall ETs suffer as turning becomes quite difficult and slow. Testing, I've seen anything past the 7/8" tuck does not increase the top end speed and the difference between 1/2" tuck and 7/8" top-end-wise is less than .25 of a mph

We test and test for that perfect prop that is fast and pumps water. In fact, we are putting shear-pin holes in 4 new propellers tomorrow morning that we made with the major goal to pump first, second goal to go fast. Is that really what our goal should be as a stock outboard racer?

As a fool-proof, easy, solution with simple verbiage that can be added to the rule book (while taking out, from what I could quickly count 2 rules) add to the majority of racers enjoyment of running the stock outboard class with a motor that what not made to run at this height is a common-sense solution to an unfortunate reality caused by no-one yet still is present.

Second coat of epoxy about to go on,
John Peeters.

[GrandpaRacer]

You are right the on John. Have you noticed the fast guys rarely over heat? They have figured it out. And they are always on the podium. In these classes it takes a lot of effort to get there and many just give up. It is not good for the racing sport. I agree CSH will likely not be faster for the top guys but 20ssh will be if left at 1/2. This change should be accompanied with a drop in 20ssh to 3/4. The Y80 guys will howl but maybe it is time to put that engine in the museum. Technically dragging a pickup tube should slow you down but opens possibilities in the prop box.

[stockc]

A host of excellent points. This is a common sense non performance "alteration." Seems the word Mod vs Stock in racing world virtually always refer to things that increase performance. Yet some may consider that I painted my gas tank a modification. The single simple rule I feel would suffice looks something like this. All Yamato motors may add a water pick up that makes NO modification to the power head. Having APBA mandate the alteration technique is unnecessary. Why further complicate inspection and subjective judgements that are made there. Some racing capitalists with ingenuity will whip up some cheap kits, some will make their own, those that cool may opt to do nothing.

If we end up with the blessing of providing water to our motors my vote would be to make both CSH and 20 run at 1/2" deep. Adding a mile or so per hour to either class will make neither unsafe. Having to run my stuff at 3/4" in one way is nice, not having to mess with shims between heats, but the faster the better so would prefer 1/2"

In Reg 10, all OSY racers also race stock Yamato classes. If a cooling remedy is adopted, hopefully it will be done in tandem with the Pro category.

Ken

[daveracerdsh]

300 SSH: At some point in time, we hope to get the 300 ssh class going in region ten. As John pointed out, we run a very similar class in Novice C (which was where I got the idea for the class) As far as it causing diminishing boat counts in CSH at some races? Maybe, maybe not. But, does it really in the long run matter if it has to a degree? Is it not more important to have people interested in running a class where they have a reasonable chance of winning and they can afford? As far as the list Mr Holt printed....I am and have been somewhat suprised at the veteran drivers that have chosen to run the class....but, look at who won the nationals this year at Hinton.....Terry Kerr, who is not an experienced hydro driver to the best of my knowledge. Jeff Brewster and myself along with the rest of the 300 committee are keeping a close eye on things.....trust me. 13 US

[Ram4x4]

It is interesting to see how popular some classes are in different regional areas. Just this weekend at Lock Haven I was surprised to see only four entries for 300SSH as prior to this race, everywhere I've been this year, 300 was pretty much guaranteed to have elims. I also got see a class I'd never seen before, 25SSH.

I don't have an issue with veteran drivers jumping into 300, it makes sense. They already have a C hull they're running in other classes, so if they can just buy a motor and have another class to run, why not? The only concern I have is steering new drivers into 300 when they take driver's school. In region 6, we're pointing new folks to jump into a very competitive class with lots of boats that to some degree is gaining a reputation as the "crash class". That's not just my personal, newbie opinion either. I was on the rescue boat for one race and the rescue diver, who is only somewhat knowledgeable about things, made a comment when 300 was announced on the radio. He looked at me for a second and then said "that's the guys that crash all the time isn't it...we better get closer to the first turn and be ready."...and sure as heck, three boats piled up in the first turn.

I really like the idea of the "Novice C" class. I understand though that at many races, adding yet another "class" into the weekend schedule might not be feasible, but until a new driver gets a few races under their belt and gets that first face full of water or has to navigate their way through a turn with several other boats a foot away it's pretty dang scary for them.

Franklin this year was my first event with my own boat and I managed a couple of decent starts, but oh boy, getting to that first turn just behind 4 other boats scared the crap out of me and I backed off. At Berwick we didn't have as many boats and I was really aggressive, at least as much as I could be and won my first ever race in my class. At Grass Lake, I again had a couple good starts and I got a little braver and ate some water. I learned that it isn't as bad as it seems and I tried to hang in. By Kittanning I was, pardon the expression, balls out. I'd managed to figure out the best places in the water when behind someone to find the smoothest water in the wake and ignore the rooster tail to some degree (just as long as I wasn't right up behind them). Lock Haven this weekend, I ate so much water I wondered if I was going to swamp my boat (I really need to put that duck bill on!).

Then again, I'm a special kind of stupid and not everyone is going to go at like that. A class just for first year drivers would be a good thing in my opinion. Heck, you wouldn't even have to make it mandatory on the sched. Add a slot for it and if enough new drivers are present to run it then slip it in, if not, skip it.

[GrandpaRacer]

Dave, If 300ss gets popular enough maybe they could run Novice 300. Or change the name to Novice 300ss😀 The idea is to give those rookies a chance to taste victory too. And do it in a less aggressive race.

[Ram4x4]

Charlie, I thank you for that insight on the potential a water pick up could provide. Not that I have a secret prop hiding in my box, but as a new guy trying to learn it's this sort of info that is helpful. Not to start any further bickering, but I do want to point out that this sport is unique compared to a lot of other sanctioned racing (especially anything with wheels on it) as everyone for the most part is helpful, there are no teams putting covers over everything and daring anyone to get near their pit, etc. In fact, I know at least one person who left the "wheeled" sports and came to boat racing specifically because of that.

I don't think the top runners should give out their best secrets, but if certain info is helpful to say, keep the inexperienced from cooking a motor, then that's a good thing. I'd rather waive to you, or Joe (Pater and Silvestri, or AJ Jennings, for example) as you leave me in the dust and still have a ton of fun driving my boat knowing I'm not going to burn up my motor trying various props because you guys are willing impart some of your experience for us new guys.

Prior to your insight, I had no idea that a prop had that much effect on pumping, I thought it was primarily due to height and design of the pick up hole and tower. Because of that info, just this weekend at Lock Haven, someone loaned me a 4-blader to try in 500 mod and I was able to check my water outputs to make sure it was flowing. Otherwise, I'd never have looked back to see and could have possibly cooked my motor. That 4-blader didn't help though, I lost 3 MPH according to my GPS, but it did pump ok, so all's good.

[GrandpaRacer]

Everything effects cooling on these motors; props, height, kick out angle, boat design, transom, foot, tower, and etc. On all other motors nothing effects cooling.

[daveracerdsh]

John: Let's chat some more at Angle lake this weekend. I should have my new crank installed into Tohatsu and am planning on being there. Dave

[deeougee]

I don't see the sense in allowing a restricted motor to be the motor of choice in a class that was born from a 20 ci motor. It would make more sense to go with current production motors across the board with no restrictions. In the short term we would spend money but in the long term we would save money and there would be a lot less confusion. Here's the way I see it. Current production motors only.

A Sidewinder 15
B Sidewinder 20
C Yamato 321
D Tohatsu
300 Yamato 321

Everything else to mod racing. Change the number of heats runs in each class to 4 heats or 3 maybe change the points structure and call it a day. This creates a lot less confusion to new people looking at the sport. The KISS rule. Keep It Simple Stupid. The future is now. What does it look like moving forward. I have Yamato 80's but recognize the current business model is not sustainable into the future.