New 321 motor?

[GrandpaRacer]

Why not include the 321 in the sealed class this year and see what happens. If it becomes the dominant motor the commission can lower the height a 1/4 inch on the motor or add 15lbs to the weight requirement to achieve parity. You still have boat design and weight of the driver as variables with the current 302 class so they are not all equal now anyway. I admit they are close, and having a new motor available with all the old motors still will help fill the field.

[csh12M]

We just have to agree to disagree. That approach is what we do in all our classes now and it has not succeeded in growth in any of them. 302SSH has real growth of new racers from Racer Schools - buying equipment has not been an issue, availability on the other hand is. Yamato 302 are done, you cant get them, its over - therefore it has to be transitioned out of the 302SSH class. It should be the most obvious easiest decision for the SORC commission to make - yet we are hearing and seeing the same old arguments that have held our sport back and continue to make it dwindle. You cant have a sealed motor class contain a motor that you cant purchase.

[GrandpaRacer]

The trade in value of a used sealed 302 will be about $1500. So your plan will cost all today's sealed class racers about another $1800 to convert to a 321. I doubt this will be acceptable.

[csh12M]

$1,500, where are you getting your data? There is one being advertised here for $2,500. You are pulling the conversion cost out of thin air - it is not $1,800. Montoya offered to convert them last year....I don't understand why that did not happen. If he would sell the parts at cost/(one time) to bring them all up to 321 specs and SORC put in some dollars on a sliding scale it would be doable. If the SORC does not do it, then I give up.....we will have finally achieved a "true" box stop class - only to allow multiple motors into it a the first chance because some guys complain about having to spend money. Forgetting the class is a fraction of the cost of any other on a Total Cost Win basis. If you don't want to convert, then don't....break your seals and run 20 or C with your motor it is the same model that won the Nats in C and 20! I would not care if half the people left, we would still rebuild the class with Racer School new names to have it back to the current level within a year or two at most. However, put in multiple motors you KILL the one thing the class has going for it. They are ALL the same motor.

[65R]

I want to be clear, I do support the 302ss class and my previous post was pertaining to the Yamato classes only. I just want new racers to understand that there is no secret to make a Yamato competitive. Tune the carb, mill the head, profile gear case, good compression, and no water leaks. That is all you need to do.

[mercguy]

this coming from a CSH racer in Reg10 that consistently runs at the top with darn near 16-22 CSH's at most of our races.........

[Ram4x4]

If I brought in a sealed 302 that I wanted to take out of 302SSH class and crack it open to have this work done to run it in CSH...how much $$ am I looking at to have the head milled, the gear case profiled, and a good 3-blade prop? Not trying to make a point, that's a legit question (because I don't know what all that work costs to have done).

[Shane_B]

~$50 to have head milled (Steve Benson), ~$125 to have foot profiled (Tom Cronk), and $350 for new prop (Craig Dewald - but you can find used ones for ~$225). Props are the black magic - props can be built as mirror images but one will work better than another and while one prop may work great on one boat set up, it may suck on another (and vice-versa). You can run a sealed 302SSH in CSH and be very competitive, just put on a profiled foot and throw on the original foot when running 302SSH. Milling a head won't guarantee you enhanced performance - there are extremely competitive 302s in CSH out here in the NW that are right out of the box with only a profiled foot...

[65R]

Well said Shane!, and thanks for the back up Daren

[Tom Cronk]

Prices to change 302ssh lower unit to CSH.

1- new 9/16 prop shaft & shaft seal installed 100.00
PROFILE unit to CSH specs 150.00
Shipping w/insureance 20.00
______
Total $270.00
Tom

[Shane_B]

Forgot about the 9/16 shaft Tom mentions... also will need a new head gasket if you mill your head (~$9).
I think you can remove your powerhead from tower and exhaust cover on sealed 302 - as long as you don't break the engine seal (check with TJ) - and if you can, I would definitely check the alignment of your tuner pipe with the powerhead (mine was off a bit - easy to shim up) and yearly check your exhaust cover for warpage/blown exhaust cover gasket... both those will rob power. See my post on de-winterizating Y302 (https://hydroracer.net/forums/forum/m...nterizing-y302).

[Hutch06]

I bought a 302SSH mid-way through this 2015 season.
I understood that the 321 is coming into the class, but wanted to have something to race the class myself this year.
Then I read the spec sheet on the 321... I contemplated about which motor I would rather have IF the SORC accepted 2 motors into the class...
I thought: "Maybe I'd like to have a 302 because it may get through the corners faster - the 321 may be faster in a straight line, but maybe not hold the R's in a tight turn..."
After driving one as a probationary motor a few weekends ago, I have a different opinion...

This is exactly the type of thinking YOU SHOULDN'T HAVE TO DO IN A SEALED CLASS. Leave that thinking for the other 11 classes in Stock Outboard Racing.

Point 2 - a sliding scale would be nice, but I went into my 302SSH motor purchase thinking that I'd have to pay full cost for a 321... figuring that Todd Anderson's friends would buy my stock 302 for $2400. I have no problem with this knowing that I'm going to be on par with the rest of the drivers in upcoming seasons.

[TAndersonV11]

Point 2 - a sliding scale would be nice, but I went into my 302SSH motor purchase thinking that I'd have to pay full cost for a 321... figuring that Todd Anderson's friends would buy my stock 302 for $2400. I have no problem with this knowing that I'm going to be on par with the rest of the drivers in upcoming seasons.

Hi Elek,

I am not sure what you are talking about, but I see my name attached to this somehow and I don't understand. Send me a PM or call me.

And in regards to the $2500 302 motor I posted for sale, it is a bone stock, standard bore, repeated Top 5 motor at the UIM European and World Championships I posted for a friend. This is an engine you would want for the 302ss class or C-stock for that matter. Not your run of the mill 302.

Todd

[Hutch06]

Hey Todd,

Nothing meant by attaching your name - I apologize if it came off in a bad light? Was just trying to make a comparison on pricing between the 321, 321/302SSH conversion, and current 302SSH...

I'll message you privately - sounds like an awesome motor and am glad that you can keep on getting these back over to the states.

Great job in Europe this summer,
Elek

[daveracerdsh]

I am no Yamato expert...I run a D stock hydro. But from what I understand the Yamato company has been making updates to the 302 engine since it first came out.....The 302 is simply a Yamato internal designation for the motor....and since so many changes have been made they started calling it the 321..Trust me, the 302 SSH committee is well aware of the issues bringing in a "new" motor. I would go out on a limb and bet that if Yamato has continued to call the 321 a 302 nobody would be saying a thing.......Just a perception.

[csh12M]

The 321 is not just a minor update to the 302 - the tower and carb are very different. You can visually see and hear the difference between motors. The prior 302 updates were cosmetically minor, if no one told you, you would not find it. The 321 is a different engine altogether. It is not just a perception. The motors in a sealed class have to be all the same. That is the point of a sealed engine class. It is unfortunate that Yamato went to a new motor just as we are getting it off the ground, but we have to change over to it and only it. Anyone getting into this class needs to understand that is the point of a class like this. If they don't want to change then break the seals and you have a perfectly good C or 20 motor. I really don't understand why it was not done last year. Montoya was willing to update the existing 302 to 321, now we have even more 302 that need updated. Fix the class now, by going to the 321.

[Big Don]

OK, never the one to be afraid to just call out the elephant in the room.

I 100% agree that it should be the 321 in the 302 class. BUT...when are we going to get the 321's? We have been waiting for Montaya's 302's or 321's for it has to be close to 2 years now. This has to be addressed the SORC's hands are tied on this one. Unless we can get 30 to 50 321's over here we are wasting our breath.

[DiGia54D]

Not that its mentioned in any post but what is the actual cost of a 321?

[dholt]

Dean is completely right on this matter. The entire "sell" of the 302ssH class is the "sealed, bone stock, one motor, one prop, pull the rope and go" concept. You cannot allow two different engines into that format.
There is going to be performance difference, no question about it.
The options are simple for current 302ssH owners.

1. Keep the motor, break the seals, blue print the motor and run 25ssR, CSH, CSR or 20ssH with it.
2. Sell the motor back to APBA/SORC or just sell the motor outright to an individual and get a 321.
3. Keep the motor, break the seals, blue print it and run all the other Yamto classes. Also, buy a 321 if you want to keep running a "sealed" class.


At some point, you have to bite the bullet if you're an owner in this class. If you want to stay in a sealed class, you're saving a good chunk of money on props/motor modification costs. So...you use that money savings to buy a new engine. And after selling the 302, shouldn't be that tough of a lift.

[Charlie Pater]

Hutch - Thanks for your thoughts. Hopefully I can be back into the boat next year.

Nathan made a point in a later post the makes me ask the question, What if the 321 is a tick faster than the 302 and we allow sealed 321s to run in the 302ssh class? Would that actually make the 321 the engine for the class? In that case people could continue running sealed 302s knowing that they have the option to upgrade. Wouldn't the only potential downfall be if the 321 ends up being slower than the 302?

[Hutch06]

I absolutely believe that the 321ssH is a tick faster than the 302ssH, and understand where you are going with it... However, what happens when the new person gets ahold of a 302ssH motor at a slightly lower price than a 321... then they realize that they are 'off the pace', but already purchased the motor.
Now they are on a search for a 321.

I love the class the way it is because you know that everyone is on the same playing field (outside of boat design) and I believe that is a HUGE sell to the potential new racer as well.

We are seeing people also purchase other equipment to run CSH, 20SSH, CSR, etc. because they got into the sport in the way the class was designed. They all still run the sealed class also.

Hope to see you in a boat in 2016 too - keep the sleds on the snow

[Charlie Pater]

I disagree with your logic regarding the new racer. A new person would not purchase a used 302 without knowing the motor differences. Remember the motors are SEALED. If a new person decided to purchase a used sealed 302 he would do so knowing the motor differences. I believe the people looking to start racing would talk to enough people and be informed of the motor differences.

As to the trade in situation, I am ambivalent. As for my situation, TJ has a 321 waiting to be sealed for me.

On the point of having the 302ssh a one motor class, it should be designed to end up that way and it would though natural 302 attrition and/or a phase out program. According to most that have tested the 321, it is the better performer and would naturally replace the 302 quickly. I believe going cold turkey in 2016 is not a good idea. Just my opinion. Guess we may have to agree to disagree.

[3rd Chance]

Dean is completely right on this matter. The entire "sell" of the 302ssH class is the "sealed, bone stock, one motor, one prop, pull the rope and go" concept. You cannot allow two different engines into that format.
There is going to be performance difference, no question about it.
The options are simple for current 302ssH owners.

1. Keep the motor, break the seals, blue print the motor and run 25ssR, CSH, CSR or 20ssH with it.
2. Sell the motor back to APBA/SORC or just sell the motor outright to an individual and get a 321.
3. Keep the motor, break the seals, blue print it and run all the other Yamto classes. Also, buy a 321 if you want to keep running a "sealed" class.


At some point, you have to bite the bullet if you're an owner in this class. If you want to stay in a sealed class, you're saving a good chunk of money on props/motor modification costs. So...you use that money savings to buy a new engine. And after selling the 302, shouldn't be that tough of a lift.

What he said....

[94H]

Wouldn't it be easier to let the current 302ss drivers decide if they want to run a sealed 302 instead of buying a new sealed 321?

[Ram4x4]

Yes, but....does that relegate 302SSH as "closed" for new drivers since the sealed 302 is all but unavailable?

Do we start a second sealed 321 class and let the current 302 owners move into 321 as they can afford to?

Do we allow 321 into the 302 class?

We know the 302 is done. What few left available will be gone very soon.

A decision needs to be made to either let it into the class or work to move out of the 302 to the 321. Regardless which way that goes, some are not going to be happy, that's just how it works with people and also why I don't rely on internet user reviews...50% say something sucks and the other 50% swear it's the best thing since ( o )( o ) and beer.

We can all have opinions on what should be done, but the bottom line is that a decision needs to get made and we need to move forward with it.

I don't agree that any kind of buyback program would flood the market....some are going keep their 302 and just buy a 321. However, if the committee or the SORC, or whomever does a buyback, they in effect "own all the 302's" they can set the price at that point to sell them back out and if done smartly, won't ruin anyone looking to sell theirs later on.

I do agree that we can't just shut off 302SSH and make it 321SSH starting next season. That's too radical.

I don't agree that 321 and 302 should run in the same sealed class. No matter how equal they really might end up being, one is not like the other and that will forever make room for controversy.

No matter what the final decision is, I think we're going to see an initial slump to some degree, but it will pick up again once 321's are readily available.

[65R]

I believe we should let the 321 be legal, that's the future motor anyways, over time the 302 will be phased out. If the 321 turns out to be a tick faster, oh well. I understand the timing couldn't have been worse for the 321 but it is was it is. I get the argument one motor, but thats not realistic right now.

[Big Don]

Maybe trying to pull this off as early as next year is impossible? But I’ll just use a swag on some of my numbers.

Just so we are clear, the 302ssh class is the best thing we have going in my opinion. Low cost, low maintenance, you can win fairly quickly or be competitive, the list is long. Let’s say there are currently 30 – 302ssh engines out there. You already have some guys saying they are ok with having to buy a 321 if we go that way. Let’s say the Dean Sutherland’s of the class just turn the 302 into a CSH engine. How many engines are we talking where the person just can’t swing doing it that way? How many engine do we have to buy back or find a home for? There are people out there looking or will be looking for 302 engines we hope, as long as the 321’s are not faster than the 302’s.

We don’t have a surplus of 321 engines to pull this off. I know you can get one from overseas, but is that we really want to do? Tell a guy that just started or a prospect, that you need to get ahold of this guy over in XXXXXXX and buy one from him? We need to have these engine here in our country ready to be bought. If Rick can’t get it done then we need to come up with another solution.

Think about it, a new guy walks up to you and says I’m ready, I have 8000.00/10,000.00 and I’m ready to do this. He wants to race in the next month. What do you put him in?

[csh12M]

Don you are 100% correct - if we don't have 50 321s in the country, then I probably would advocate waiting a year, at least. Hiwever, we have so stop selling 302 or letting anyone retro a 302 in the class. We have to fix the problem while it is still manageable. I am working under the assumption that they really will be available in the states soon. Between this and Sidewinder delay - tough to do much in any class.

[65R]

I would suggest buying a 321 because that's the new motor, if one wasn't available find a 302. Either way, allow both motors in 302ss. If the 321 becomes dominant then the individual needs to make choice on what motor he wants to run.

[Hutch06]

And it now becomes just like every other class in SO except you can't do anything to make yourself faster besides purchasing a new 321 (when they become available). The beauty of the class IMO is that you shouldn't have to worry about 'which motor to purchase'.

[Charlie Pater]

It is not just like every other class! There is no reason to "worry" about which motor to purchase. The motors are sealed and only available in the 321 model. Sure there may be some used sealed 302s out there but the 321 is the motor of choice, according to what people have experienced. It is absolutely not like other classes where the motors can be blueprinted and/or other tricks done to them. All motors are sealed. I guess we have to agree to disagree.