20SSH Sidewinder Removal Proposal: Vote NO

[ricochet112]

Matt, this is Mike Bartlett.

[Matt Dagostino]

Oops

Matt, this is Mike Bartlett.

Sorry Mike. Thought Hannon was jumping in on the fun.

[pav225]

No disrespect to the fine people at Sidewinder but could someone/anyone please post a list of the new racers that have started in stock outboard using the sidewinder. And I'm not talking about people that have raced for years and switched to Sidewinder, I'm talking new people. And if anyone has a list of racers that have stopped racing Ash/Asr or quit altogether since the introduction of sidewinder was put into that class, I would appreciate it. Thanks, Jim

Probably something that should be considered...

[pops67g]

History should teach us something

Mr. Sweeney brings up a good point. DSH serves as an example here. The mantra has been for several years that if there are new engines available a given class will grow. This is obviously a fallacy. In DSH there were at least 60 drivers scoring points for the season just a couple years ago. In 2013 there were 25 who scored points. How many of the Tohatsu drivers in the class are first time racers or newbies altogether? Based on this example it is not hard to understand the concerns about putting a new motor in the 20 class.

[ryan_4z]

Bringin' it all back home...

If history has taught us anything, it's that the introduction of new motors is always a bumpy road. In the 70's,when there was a surplus of drivers and new classes could simply be created for every new motor this was not an issue. Since, no new motor has been introduced without some controversy. And often this comes with a loss of drivers. In the long term, however, these new motors are needed for the sport to continue. Not just grow, but to go on at all. The fact is, times change, and we can't race the same motors forever. If we did, we'd all have 60 year old Mercs and Matt D. would be pushing 30 straight CSH Championships.

The SW saga has been particularly painstaking because it was a highly experimental project. I'm not making any excuses for SW, I'm just saying, it is what it is.

The last 15 years have been wrought with motor controversy. The Mercury, and Tohatsu have, after much debate, been integrated into the class structure. Once the SW is similarly situated this long and drawn out period of transition will be over. There is a light at the end of the tunnel and it is growing bigger by the moment.

We've all endured a lot of grief over these issues. But here we sit, on the verge of (maybe) having a cemented class structure with new/available, and used options in every class. Hasn't that been the goal all along?

I'm sure new, troublesome issues lie right around the corner. But, with new available motors in every class, even if we can't find a way to grow (this will take a whole lot more than just new motors), at least we can keep on keepin' on.

[daveracerdsh]

Sorc

Like most threads, this one has morphed into something a little different then what was intended by the poster. So be it. I suppose I am somewhat naive, but every year I spend hard earned money to attend the national meeting...I have my own little business and get no paid vacation time, but I am not complaining. Racers keep saying they want to see a 5 year, 10 year, you name it plan from the SORC...the way things are set up now it is almost impossible to make any kind of long term plan....commissioners are elected for only a one year term, SORC chair for a 2 year term, and any plan that is implemented can be changed by the next years commission. I find it increasingly frustrating to go to these meetings, thinking that we are actually going to accomplish something, instead we spend 90% of our time discussing things that could and should be taken care of via phone conference. I know Jeff Brewster is equally frustrated. As far as new motors in classes? If we do not bring in new motors into a class, such as A or D, that class will at some point, whether it be in 10 years or 30 years, go away....it has to happen. I think as such a small group that we are lucky to have as many motors available as we do...Yamato, Sidewinder, Tohatsu, etc....and yet we seem to put barriers up against people that want to help us. I do not understand that...As to why the D class has not grown with the new motor available? I am honestly very suprised that this has not happened.....Maybe we need to have some open discussion on the subject. We need more then 30 drivers in the fastest class in stock outboarding....these are just a few dis-jointed thoughts that I have had floating around in my head. Dave

[Dave M]

Point Made Dave

As to why the D class has not grown with the new motor available? I am honestly very suprised that this has not happened.....Maybe we need to have some open discussion on the subject. We need more then 30 drivers in the fastest class in stock outboarding....these are just a few dis-jointed thoughts that I have had floating around in my head. Dave

Dave, great point. Why is that ? Would be nice to see a thread on that. Maybe something could be learned from those reasons. My opinion is the cost of that engine. Timing was against that engine. The economy tanked right about the time it became clear it was to be the engine of choice. All of a sudden people found themselves with much less disposable income. not everyone, but new to the sport folks. Why risk it until the economy comes back. If there is one thing that I can speak to from experience, is the fact that uncertainty will cause effect. You put people into an uncertain situation and more often than not, they will bail for more stable platforms.

[Matt Dagostino]

Cost

Dave, great point. Why is that ? Would be nice to see a thread on that. Maybe something could be learned from those reasons. My opinion is the cost of that engine. .

Dave and Dave.......look at the DATA in the Stock Outboard Division. What classes have historically been the most popular?? It has been the affordable Yamato classes!!

Stock Outboard is sooooo cost driven and trying to market $5000-6500 engines is a very hard thing within our division. Sure there will always be some that can afford these engines but for Stock Outboard to maintain a NATIONAL presence it will be a tough go.

Heck, the Merc 15 has been a success in our J Classes because you can go on e-bay or craigslist and pick up a used one for $300-400 bucks, get a conversion kit, a lower unit, send it off to Stillwill and have a great motor for under $2500!! Or if you have a fat checkbook you can stroke a check for $3500 to APBA for a new one. A top shelf 302 Yamato is $2000-2500 off Hydroracer or elsewhere on the used market. A new one is like $3000 race ready.

But Tahatsus and Sidewinders are not on craigslist or e-bay or on the 'used market'. Just a fact of life. Hopefully the 'market and economy' will improve to help open the door for more folks to buy the new engines down the road.

Way off topic but this thread has run it's course.

[daveracerdsh]

Tohatsu

Dave...I agree. I think the motor came out at a bad time in a sense....the economy was in the dumps, people just did not and still don't have the disposable income for a $6500 purchase right now....I honestly do not have an answer or solution to the problem. I have had a brand new Tohatsu sitting in my shop, ready to race, and I am or was a little shocked that nobody came forward to purchase it....we are holding a raffle for it though. It would not be truthfull of me to state that D stock is an inexpensive class to get into, whether it be Merc 44XS or Tohatsu....However, if you have never driven a good D stock rig, you are in for the ride of your life. I have driven everything from 5 litre, Super Stock, C alki, etc etc, and for my money there is no class in racing that can compare to a good running d stock. One other little interesting tidbit...I took my first Tohatsu into one of the best 2 cycle dudes in the country and told him to do everything possible within the rules to make it fast...and he did. I bought a second "backup" motor last year, one that was bone stock, and tested them side by side. You know what? Both motors, same boat, same prop, same gas, etc etc....ran EXACTLY the same speed. Exactly. I was stunned. The only reason I mentioned that is the fact that you can be fast right out of the box with a stock Tohatsu...you are in a sense wasting your money in my opinion having it blueprinted. I will start a new thread Sunday night on the D stock class, both here and on the APBA website. Dave

[seanp3]

Dave, great point. Why is that ? Would be nice to see a thread on that. Maybe something could be learned from those reasons. My opinion is the cost of that engine. Timing was against that engine. The economy tanked right about the time it became clear it was to be the engine of choice. All of a sudden people found themselves with much less disposable income. not everyone, but new to the sport folks. Why risk it until the economy comes back. If there is one thing that I can speak to from experience, is the fact that uncertainty will cause effect. You put people into an uncertain situation and more often than not, they will bail for more stable platforms.

Nailed it.... I've had an opportunity to take a couple rides in Daren's DSH over the past couple years and it was super fun. Would it be fun to get a DSH and go race it? Yes, absolutely. Its a little less punishing on the body than in CSH. However, I'm having fun with the Yamato classes and have a good selection of props that do reasonably well. And honestly, right now I don't have the $$ to invest in the motor and props for a DSH. Two kids in college doesn't help, and one's going off to dental school after his first 4 years. I guess if I win the Tohatsu Dave is raffling of then I'll be changing gears a bit for a boat and props. But that's the only scenario that would get me into a DSH right now. There are probably a few others in the same boat as myself

[seanp3]

I think this has headed a bit off topic, so this post is to redirect......

[Team 12R]

How soon we forget

Like most threads, this one has morphed into something a little different then what was intended by the poster. So be it. I suppose I am somewhat naive, but every year I spend hard earned money to attend the national meeting...I have my own little business and get no paid vacation time, but I am not complaining. Racers keep saying they want to see a 5 year, 10 year, you name it plan from the SORC...the way things are set up now it is almost impossible to make any kind of long term plan....commissioners are elected for only a one year term, SORC chair for a 2 year term, and any plan that is implemented can be changed by the next years commission. I find it increasingly frustrating to go to these meetings, thinking that we are actually going to accomplish something, instead we spend 90% of our time discussing things that could and should be taken care of via phone conference. I know Jeff Brewster is equally frustrated. As far as new motors in classes? If we do not bring in new motors into a class, such as A or D, that class will at some point, whether it be in 10 years or 30 years, go away....it has to happen. I think as such a small group that we are lucky to have as many motors available as we do...Yamato, Sidewinder, Tohatsu, etc....and yet we seem to put barriers up against people that want to help us. I do not understand that...As to why the D class has not grown with the new motor available? I am honestly very suprised that this has not happened.....Maybe we need to have some open discussion on the subject. We need more then 30 drivers in the fastest class in stock outboarding....these are just a few dis-jointed thoughts that I have had floating around in my head. Dave

If you remember Dave SORC put so many restriction on the Tohatsu it made it almost crazy to buy one. Height, Weight and a legal motor in only DSH, DSR and FEH. "We" the APBA are the reason for so few D racers in comparison to other classes today.
This might be something to remember before we flat out deny entry of a new motor to any class. I know the SW in "A" didn't sit well with folks as it's not sitting well in "20". We need to think about the future. Be careful, be smart and move forward.

[sponsonhead]

Just a reminder...and a last desperate attempt to un-hijack this wayward thread: Ballots are due this week. Please remember to vote!

Thanks,

R-19

[blueskyracer]

so how long does it take to get the results.. Just curious

[sponsonhead]

I'm not positive, but I would hope that we would hear something either way by the end of next week, or the first part of the following week.
R-19