Don't let Region 6 kill Sidewinder

[pav225]

Troy,
Great point about the numbers. I think they are available and would be useful to review for all classes and provide the SORC a clear picture of what's happening in terms of numbers and participation.


For heavier drivers that don't want to race C, 302ssH is a great option. It's 20 pounds heavier than 20ssH and goes 60 MPH.

For folks who want to go faster and weigh over 200 lbs, C is still a great option. It's only a few MPH faster than 20ssH and 40 lbs heavier.

Mike

[reed28n]

Our Nation is getting bigger

Troy,
Great point about the numbers. I think they are available and would be useful to review for all classes and provide the SORC a clear picture of what's happening in terms of numbers and participation.


For heavier drivers that don't want to race C, 302ssH is a great option. It's 20 pounds heavier than 20ssH and goes 60 MPH.

For folks who want to go faster and weigh over 200 lbs, C is still a great option. It's only a few MPH faster than 20ssH and 40 lbs heavier.

Mike

As we get bigger as a nation I think the 20 class is a good option, the wider the spectrum the more potential you have to attract more drivers, 180 guys have A,B, 20, 302, more experienced drivers like you step up to C, do we not want heavier drivers to compete in the 20 class? Are we to cut out big sodas Bloomburg?

[bill boyes]

I thought that the 20 class was going to be renamed "B"?

[reed28n]

Facts???

Let's test your Cause and Effect theory on the SW 20 helping the 20ssH class become the largest class in Stock...

Name some new drivers that started 20ssH because the SW 20 was approved for the class.

While we are collecting facts, let's see the 70 MPH SW, let's gather data on drivers that only have procured a 302 to start racing 20, which was never the intent, the intent initially was to grab some CSH's to boost the 20 class. Let's gather data on the 20's with restricted motors where drivers are scooping an extra ride, let's gather data on veteran drivers switching to 302s for a speed advantage and let's project the new 302 owners that we will not retain because veteran drivers will dominate another class.

Let's not worry at all about potential growth and attracting new drivers to the class, let's continue to promote fear of losing one existing racer and keep this sport to ourselves, let's continue racing in 6-7 boat fields except for nationals.

[pav225]

Scott,
Congratulations. Yet another ridiculous and circular reply to a completely innocent post.

What's wrong with looking at the numbers to see how/why classes are growing or shrinking?

No hidden agenda, just trying to better understand how to help the sport.

Mike

[mercguy]

As we get bigger as a nation I think the 20 class is a good option, the wider the spectrum the more potential you have to attract more drivers, 180 guys have A,B, 20, 302, more experienced drivers like you step up to C, do we not want heavier drivers to compete in the 20 class? Are we to cut out big sodas Bloomburg?

as a 220lb+ driver, I know darn well that "I" have no place racing in 20SSH and am fine with that.......as it should be.......I don't think "weight challenged" (LOL!) racers need to be catered to in the smaller classes...............they have 302SSH, C and D and..... plenty of MOD classes........

[reed28n]

Remarkable

Scott,
Congratulations. Yet another ridiculous and circular reply to a completely innocent post.

What's wrong with looking at the numbers to see how/why classes are growing or shrinking?

No hidden agenda, just trying to better understand how to help the sport.

Mike

If there is no agenda then withdraw your petition. You are trying to help by advancing your agenda.

You are a contradiction, the questions I posed are seeking facts. Your petition cover letter contained no facts.

There is nothing wrong with data..... I encourage you to collect that data before you make wide sweeping assumptions about what might happen without having all of the supporting data.

Withdraw your petition and lets just go racing, then we can resume this debate with all the facts you should have had before your baseless claims. Next year.

[pav225]

No hidden agenda in my suggesting we look at data to see what is happening with our membership.

No hidden agenda with the petition. It was announced to the SORC before we informed any drivers. The agenda of the petition is to allow the drivers to vote on the direction of their class. Stick with 2 extremely competitive Yamatos, or cause a mess like we've seen in other classes.

I've continued to ask for names of new folks with your plan. After multiple requests, and zero actual answers, I will assume that number is zero.

As far as me being a "contradiction". That's absurd. I've stated my thoughts/position on this years ago and continue to believe that 20ssH should remain a Yamato class. Zero contradiction there.

What is a contradiction is what we tell potential new drivers.... Why would you try to sell a new racer a motor for twice the price, but then tell them they won't be competitive? Or tell them we are not certain about the direction of our largest class. Why not tell them it's a Yamato class. You can buy a Y80 for about $1200 or a Y302 for $2200. Or better yet, buy a 302ssH rig and then you can use the same boat, and base motor and race 20ssH and CSH after they get some experience. That plan fits very nicely with the 302ssH plan and is very consistent with what Driving Schools are promoting.

[reed28n]

Fits nicely

No hidden agenda in my suggesting we look at data to see what is happening with our membership.

No hidden agenda with the petition. It was announced to the SORC before we informed any drivers. The agenda of the petition is to allow the drivers to vote on the direction of their class. Stick with 2 extremely competitive Yamatos, or cause a mess like we've seen in other classes.

I've continued to ask for names of new folks with your plan. After multiple requests, and zero actual answers, I will assume that number is zero.

As far as me being a "contradiction". That's absurd. I've stated my thoughts/position on this years ago and continue to believe that 20ssH should remain a Yamato class. Zero contradiction there.

What is a contradiction is what we tell potential new drivers.... Why would you try to sell a new racer a motor for twice the price, but then tell them they won't be competitive? Or tell them we are not certain about the direction of our largest class. Why not tell them it's a Yamato class. You can buy a Y80 for about $1200 or a Y302 for $2200. Or better yet, buy a 302ssH rig and then you can use the same boat, and base motor and race 20ssH and CSH after they get some experience. That plan fits very nicely with the 302ssH plan and is very consistent with what Driving Schools are promoting.

Again you go back to how your vision is beyond the comprehension of the SORC and the established process. You are side stepping the process that has bee in place because of your opinion. Not data, not facts, I defer to you to provide supporting data to your claims, it is your job to present facts to unwind the process, it is something you should have compiled prior to your baseless petition. It is all your obligation to support your claims in your cover letter with data.

You miss the point about the process and the hard work to promote an idea or an "agenda" the petition process is extremely short sighted because you are only concerned about your class. Propose something constructive to the SORC, lobby for it, volunteer as a commissioner, become a part of the process. If you remove the motor that way then it happens and you have done your job.

Or lean back in your easy chair propose something that will allow each class to govern itself.

This is the petition you are championing it is your job to bring something other tha your opinion.

[Matt Dagostino]

Tabor City..........

You guys should have gotten off the computer and come down to Tabor City.

Lots of boats, the biggest classes were 20SSH and ASH. 10 boats each.

And oh yea, thanks to MEL THOMAS three new drivers were racing 20ssh with Yamato 80's. Imagine that. And they all signed the petition!!

In the last 2 years we have added 4 NEW 20ssh drivers and all of them are running Yamato 80's. Go figure.

[Howie Nichols]

Seems to me that the SW was behind the rope of the tow boat in more heats than not during the 20 races... real threat! look out yamato owners...

[bill boyes]

The Question is "Do you want a new motor or not"? Answer, Yes but not is my class.

[pav225]

Scott,
You continue to take jabs at me personally, and that is fine. I assume that it is your way to distract from the actual issue at hand, or maybe it just makes you feel good to take jabs at people…kind of like they way you called 302ssH “Adult J” at the Nationals.

Anyone that knows me, knows I don’t sit in an easy chair very often. In fact, I’m pretty sure I don’t own one. Like you, we spend a lot of our time in the garage or basement working on our passion. This is just like any other issue, where people have differing opinions on an important topic, but you continue to chose to make it personal and attack mine or our Team’s “agenda”, credibility, commitment to the sport, lack of vision, etc. All areas of my life which are much better judged by folks who actually know me. But feel free to continue to judge me freely. The only agenda I’m pushing is for our members to be heard because many believe the SORC is not listening to them. We have heard this many times over the last few years, so we are trying to provide a path for drivers to express their concerns openly.

There were many considerations that went into the decision to launch the petition. One of this biggest was knowing that we could really upset some of the members. We felt strong enough about the need to help the class that we were willing to take the heat. People’s voices need to be heard. Again, all we are looking for is the opportunity for drivers to be able to vote on their class. Many feel that the SW20ci was shoved down the throats of the 20ssH drivers. This petition is merely meant to give drivers the opportunity to correct that.

Maybe we could have provided different information in the cover letter. We provided information based on what we had heard from others during the summer. We didn’t feel it was appropriate to put names, or quotes, in the petition as many people do not want to take part in the personal attacks. If given an opportunity to rewrite the cover letter, we may have written it differently, but that isn’t relevant to the argument. We were not trying use the petition to sell anyone on the idea of removing a motor, so we kept it fairly brief, simple, and a bit understated. We knew where many of the members stood, and most already had an opinion on the situation. Almost all drivers thought they had to accept having a poor decision shoved down their throats. We are just trying to give them a voice and allowed to vote.

What you continue to miss is that a lot of members do not have the necessary faith in the SORC at this time to fix this issue before it gets completely out of hand. Decisions that have been made have caused uncertainty in the category. I am willing to be on the SORC. Our Region only had two available spots and Don & Ed were elected. If the next chairman is willing to appoint me, I am certainly willing to be on the SORC.

In Seattle, the 20ci SW was approved with ZERO data. You may believe the onus is on me to provide data to show why the 20ci SW should be removed. I would suggest that the majority of 20ssH drivers would have argued that some data should have been presented before a new motor was introduced into one of Stock’s largest classes.

In addition to the 20ci SW being approved with ZERO data, the 20ci SW height was recently raised to 1” with ZERO data. We asked for data to be provided on why that decision was made, and were simply brushed off. This action lowered many driver’s confidence that the “right thing” would be done with the 20ci SW in 20ssH.

Below are a few facts that have been shared with us by drivers throughout the country, and some additional rationale for why we believe the members want this and are willing to support it.

Fact: You mention that the 302 was only put in to help the class. I’m not sure if that is the case or not. If so, we stumbled on to a winning formula. The Y80 and Y302 are extremely competitive powerplants. Whatever the reason was for the decision back then, this formula works well and should be locked in for a given period of time to maintain stability in the class, reduce uncertainty, and support growth.

Fact: Driving Schools and 302ssH is one of the best tools we have to get folks started in racing. Having a clear path into CSH and 20ssH with a Yamato 302 motor is a GREAT selling tool to potential new drivers. It demonstrates a clearly thought out and affordable way to get into racing and to progress into other classes. There is no benefit to having another motor in the class.

Fact: A large majority of members feel the SORC could have done a better job with the handling of the A & B classes by using more unbiased data when looking at parity. Many drivers feel that the way “parity” was handled has led to instability in their class and have caused some folks to move to Mod in order to avoid the current uncertainty.

Fact: We (Don & I) and racers from other Regions voiced our concerns to our commissioners in 2010, that the 20ci SW engine should not be in the 20 class because the class already had an available engine. A few commissioners abandoned the stance that they committed to take, and the SORC members voted the opposite way. This was not a good way to build confidence in the leadership or the process, so save your lectures.

Fact: While we did make reference to the speed of Dylan’s B rig as an example in the letter, it was only to demonstrate how much uncertainty that a 3rd motor would cause. It was merely a reference point.

Fact: We could have provided additional test data but we felt there was no need. Many know how fast the old 20 CI Hot Rods went. Why wouldn’t the 20ci SW have the same 70 MPH potential? After speaking with 20ssH drivers across the country, a common theme is that they aren’t against it because they are “shying away from competition”. They are worried that they will have to spend $15,000.00 plus to be competitive again, when many of them have just spent money switching from 80’s to 302’s. Most people believe that they would have to buy 2 engines (one will always run better than the other), new props, and possibly a new boat. This is well beyond many folk’s budgets and not a good proposition for growing our sport.

Fact: Several new prospects have decided not to race boats because of all the uncertainty of our sport. Yes, that is largely because of all of us who are selling it (or not selling it). But how do you sell our classes when you don’t know what engine to tell potential racers to buy? It also goes back to the point that if the SW 20ci is not supposed to be at the front of the pack (“preferred engine”), what new person would buy it? Why confuse the issue by having it in the class? Keep it simple and sell folks on Yamatos for “Yamato Classes” and Sidewinders for “Sidewinder Classes”.

Fact: The 20ci SW is available for A, B, 25ssR. Growth is stagnant in these classes, even with a new motor. Our efforts should be placed on promoting the SW in these classes and help new folks learn how to tune them. I understand there are 27 different combinations of jets, slides, and needles for the A motor. This is great for tuning, but probably a bit overwhelming for a new driver. A possible way to help alleviate some of the fears of new folks, and have the motors run more consistently in different weather, is to create sheet on what combinations of carb parts should be run in certain weather conditions. This will help stabilize the performance of the motor and can support growth.

Fact: Previously, arguments were made that once new motors are available, that classes will grow. Unfortunately, we are not seeing this growth. Since this is the case, we need to be more cautious about how we treat our current drivers in one of Stock’s largest classes. It’s simply “Marketing 101...Don’t alienate your current customer base (drivers) while looking to pursue new customers”. I firmly believe that if 20ssH is handled like A (which raising the height to 1” with no data, suggests it will be handled worse than A), then we are at risk of losing many racers. Stock Outboard can’t afford to lose any racers.

Fact: 4 New drivers got started in 20ssH this weekend at Tabor City…racing Y80s! Awesome work by Mel and Matt getting new folks in boats! (4) NEW drivers, getting started in 20ssH with Y80s is the best data that we can use to show how to grow the 20ssH class.

[pav225]

My opinion, and that of many others, is that the SORC does pick the engine of choice in a class. Either intentionally, or intentionally, the actions that they take indicate what is considered the engine of choice. Perhaps there would be more clarity if we identified what is the preferred engine for each class and move forward.

At this time, we have made our thoughts know numerous times. We have already received many petitions back, and a lot of behind the scenes support for doing what drivers believe is the best for the class. It’s unfortunate that we feel a petition is the only way to move this forward, but given the evidence over the last few years, we feel this is the best way to let the driver’s voice be heard.

Other than the 8 or 10 of us going back and forth on this thread I’m not sure anyone else cares to come on here and say anything. We are providing a very high level of entertainment, but I will be slowing down my posts as there isn’t much of a benefit to say the same thing over and over, and I would prefer to keep this site as positive as possible.

I guess that as a side benefit, all the traffic from this post is a nice way to payback the HydroRacer folks for supporting the website and for donating their Revolution boat for us to use to get new folks started in our Region. Thanks Mike and Theresa!

In summary, we believe that the petition is required to protect one of Stock’s largest classes. While we would have preferred other methods, we don’t have strong confidence that the actions taken would be in the best interest of the drivers. We strongly believe that 20ssH is best served with the very competitive Y80 and Y302 motors. Any deviation from this, causes a lot of uncertainty, inhibits growth in the class, and will cause folks to get out of 20ssH.

All the best from your lazy, trailer box protecting, 302ssH supporting, easy chair sitting, contradicting, Team loving, fuel cheating, lawyer friending, self centered, biased, short sighted, hidden agenda having, Yamato loving friend,

- Mike

[Big Don]

[QUOTE=bill boyes;230584]The Question is "Do you want a new motor or not"? Answer, Yes but not is my class.[/


J class - Mercury
A class - Sidewinder
B class - Sidewinder
20 class - Yamato
C class - Yamato
D class - Tohatsu
And if 25 stays- Sidewinder