Don't let Region 6 kill Sidewinder

[ryan_4z]

2) We will never achieve parity with such different motors.

3) There is absolutely no reason to have a 3rd motor in the class, for 2-3 times the price, when folks can't win with it.

I'm pretty sure Rich Runne won 20ssH at Crystal Lake over a pretty fast restricted 302.

[fourty-eight N]

yeah the sidewinder definitely wins races. First 6 ash across the finish at lock haven were sidewinders. Dylans B sidewinder? Bobby austins B sidewinder? All the A sidewinders on the east coast?? They all run flawless and win races. How could you say they dont run/cant win? Just because guys out west cant figure out how to get the motor to run doesnt mean we should slow down these motors. thats their problem the motor doesn't run, not ours. Don't take away all out hard work and time and effort into these motors just because some guys cant figure it out and say that its "unfair"

[Big Don]

Max, I get what your saying. But that is exactly what we are trying to say. If you read this entire thread and listen in the pits, it's all over the board. They run, they don't, most run right from Ed, Mine doesn't run, I've given up, I gave mine to so and so to figure out, mine s fast when it runs, they bog in the corners, I can't get this to run on a runabout....

I get all that, that is why when the 20ssH class has an available engine and then you have all the Sidewinder talk, it causes confusion to both current racers and prospective racers. All we are saying because 20 has an available engine with the 302 we need to move the 20S out and to a different class so we don't ruin one of our biggest classes. You can't have 2 engines of choice. The 25 class makes perfect sense.

[csh2z]

The more I think about it , the more I believe that moving the 20S to 25H as the motor of choice makes sense.
A little history from the east. I have been running 20SSH with the Sidewinder for 4 years. Since the new manifold was installed, we are now consistently competitive with front running 80's and most 302's in 20SSH. I'm sure Matt will confirm that. For the most part it's only been three of us participating regularly on the east coast with Sidewinders. Myself (with misc. drivers and very limited resources), My brother Rich ( mostly a runabout driver) and Christine Brewster (who recently sold the motor to Gary Pond). Gary , by the way, has not been very supportive of Sidewinder in recent years primarily due to his efforts to keep the J,A & 20 classes alive by supplying quality OMC's and Yamato's on the east coast. Gary now has two A Sidewinders and the recently purchased 20S. He has had some problems tuning early in the season but now they're all running great. Back to the subject.
Personally, I don't want to run against restricted 302's, whether I can beat them or not. If we are going to make a change, NOW IS THE TIME. We can not afford any more confusion, division or indecision. Right now, before this arguing gets out of hand.
If the Sidewinder supporters can respect the Yamato contingent, and the Yamato supporters can respect the Sidewinder contingent, together, we can make this work. We are all on the same side. Together, we need to define the future of all of our classes with a long term plan to stabilize our rules and promote our sport. Right now, with this class discussion, we can set an example for working together to solve an issue.
John

[sponsonhead]

Where's the Beef?

John,

Apparently your voice mail on your cell must be broken as you appear to be unable or unwilling to return my phone calls. With that in mind, allow me to offer a few thoughts here, since you seem to be spending a lot of time on the computer these days.

While putting the Sidewinder 20S in as the motor of choice in 25SSH will placate the band of 20SSH owners who perceive it as threat to all that is good and holy, this does nothing for me personally in the short term. I can drag my SW to any race in Region 10 and register it as a 25SSH, since most of our race sanctions schedule all SO classes. And I will be the ONLY 25SSH in attendance. So unless the race committee allows me to run as a class of one, combined with another class, like 20SSH or CSH, I got nothing.

The advantage of being able to run it as a 20SSH gives me a place to run with other boats, an opportunity to race for the same thing everybody else does (points, prizes, etc)...which, since I pay the same entry fee seems only reasonable....but it also gives me a platform to run one of Stock Outboard's newest motors where other people in my region can see the capability and performance of my Sidewinder. Running with 25SSH right now might be fine if you are on the east coast....but it doesn't do a thing for me out here in the short term.

Unless there's another component of this idea that has yet to be revealed, this falls short of a reasonable solution. Again, I have no problem with a phase out of the 20S from 20SSH, and a ramp up to make it the go-to motor for 25SSH....but I believe we cannot do this as a knee jerk response without a fleshed-out, phase in, phase out plan that is equitable to all.

R-19

[daveracerdsh]

Ed Runne

Don. Give Ed a call and he will explain it to you. Thanx, Dave

[pav225]

Restrictor

John,


While putting the Sidewinder 20S in as the motor of choice in 25SSH will placate the band of 20SSH owners who perceive it as threat to all that is good and holy, this does nothing for me personally in the short term.
R-19

Patrick,
Give Ricky a call and buy a 7/16" restrictor for your 302 to race 20ssH. You've got the boat, a great motor, and some props to chose from.

Good luck!
Mike

[sponsonhead]

Patrick,
Give Ricky a call and buy a 7/16" restrictor for your 302 to race 20ssH. You've got the boat, a great motor, and some props to chose from.

Good luck!
Mike

We already own a restrictor and do that. I want to do something different and support new engine manufacturers.

There's another aspect of this discussion that also speaks to the benefit of having the SW in 20ssH, Mike: The reason we do NOT run a restricted 302 in 20SSH is that our driver is a big guy. We run at a little over 440 lbs in CSH with no lead. Our boat is not overly heavy. If we run a Yamato in 20SSH, we're over 40 lbs overweight.

With the lighter weight of the SW motor and a smaller boat (which may or may not ultimately be the answer), we run at about 410....which works for us.

A Restricted 302 in 20SSH does not work for us, unless we have a lighter driver. And my driver happens to like a little beer now and then.

R-19

[Matt Dagostino]

Yep

All we are saying because 20 has an available engine with the 302 we need to move the 20S out and to a different class so we don't ruin one of our biggest classes. You can't have 2 engines of choice. The 25 class makes perfect sense.

Again, this is the main point. As a Commissioner who voted NO to this engine coming into the class in Seattle, i was concerned that this item was even allowed to get on the Chairman's National Agenda in 2010.

To be honest, half of the Commissioners have no idea what they are voting for and the consequences that are created by their actions on many issues. Allowing a NEW engine into a class is MAJOR LEAGUE stuff and the issues that are now surfacing here should have been taken seriously in Seattle. This was a poorly thought out proposal that was 'politically' a hot potato.

I often times am 'ignorant' of certain 'agenda items' that come up at these National Meetings meetings and mean no disrespect to fellow Commissioners but the SORC screwed up here and really should never have had the issue on the floor to vote on!

It would have been nice in Seattle to have all the 'armchair' quarterbacks that are now wanting the Sidewinder out of the class to have voiced their opinions in PUBLIC to the SORC( in front of the Sidewinder Rep's) and perhaps the vote would have gone the other way. Now we have to go through this difficult process to finally get to the right decision!

[daveracerdsh]

Sorc

I suppose the biggest reason I have my panties in a bunch over this whole thing is not the fact that a group of racers want a motor out of a class (I do not agree with it) but the fact that the way you guys want to achieve it is going against the way I feel we should do things. Like I stated before, the membership in each region elects the SORC to represent them...if said membership feels we are not doing a decent job we don't get re-elected. Pretty simple. What is the point of us (the SORC) paying hard earned money to go to national meetings, vote on issues, such as the 20 Sidewinder, only to have a few people send out a petition to membership to have it changed? Why on earth can't this wait until Reno? Yes, it is a membership based organization, but the members have already spoken by electing us to do our jobs. I honestly hope this does not come back to bite us in the future.....See you guys in Reno. Dave

[pav225]

Really?

We already do that. I want to do something different and support new engine manufacturers.

There's another aspect of this discussion that also speaks to the benefit of having the SW in 20ssH, Mike: The reason we do NOT run a restricted 302 in 20SSH is that our driver is a big guy. We run at a little over 440 lbs in CSH with no lead. Our boat is not overly heavy. If we run a Yamato in 20SSH, we're over 40 lbs overweight.

With the lighter weight of the SW motor and a smaller boat (which may or may not ultimately be the answer), we run at about 410....which works for us.

A Restricted 302 in 20SSH does not work for us, unless we have a lighter driver. And my driver happens to like a little beer now and then.

R-19

Patrick,
While I've only been presented 1 benefit for keeping the SW in 20ssH, you are in the lead:
1) It allows racers to drink more beer.

Mike

[pav225]

Aloha

I suppose the biggest reason I have my panties in a bunch over this whole thing is not the fact that a group of racers want a motor out of a class (I do not agree with it) but the fact that the way you guys want to achieve it is going against the way I feel we should do things. Like I stated before, the membership in each region elects the SORC to represent them...if said membership feels we are not doing a decent job we don't get re-elected. Pretty simple. What is the point of us (the SORC) paying hard earned money to go to national meetings, vote on issues, such as the 20 Sidewinder, only to have a few people send out a petition to membership to have it changed? Why on earth can't this wait until Reno? Yes, it is a membership based organization, but the members have already spoken by electing us to do our jobs. I honestly hope this does not come back to bite us in the future.....See you guys in Reno. Dave

Dave,
We were there in 2010 and presented our case as much possible.

At that time, no performance data was presented on the 20ci SW. Multiple members on the SORC, who were against introducing the motor into 20ssH, changed their minds at the last minute. This included our Region's 2 elected representatives. We were literally shocked when it got voted in, because 20ssH was thriving, and there was ZERO data on the new motor.

We tried not to make a stink after that and just got on with our racing. Unfortunately, the events of this year made it so we felt we needed to take some action.

I'm sorry you don't like the way it's being handled. It's not ideal for us either. However, we are just looking to give the class participants the opportunity to vote.

Mike

[Apachemax]

The sidewinder will never run correctly with the carb on the side in it current design!!! It is wrong, any real two stroke engineer will tell you this!!!
For those that do not know an experimental crankcase was tested out at the nationals. someone built an front carb, crankcase for the side winder.
It picked up 2 MPH just by putting the carb where it belongs on the engine. The front carb case was not even 100% correct yet, as the crank was binding in the case in spots and running hot.
So don't be saying that the engine runs fine!! For what I have seen they extremely tempermental to air changes, rpm, air temp, ect.
It really needs to be put on probation until it is 100% correct.

I hate to change the subject, or to kickstart this thread again, however. I feel Darrel has a point here, the SWs design is falty, and should be redesigned slightly. Perhaps work with this character who designed a front-carb crankcase and see how his "Frontwinder" performs.
And to my knowlage, Darrel studied 2 stroke engine design at a technical college. I believe he knows what he is talking about.
In addition to that, a family friend of mine; who is a retired moto cross racer and 2 stroke engineer, took a single look at a sidewinder, and buckled over with laughter. He strongly believes that a 2 stroke should have the carb as close to the crank as humanly possible, perhaps even integrated into the crank case. Looking at previous 2 stroke designs; proves his theory to be fact.
-Brandon

[csh2z]

Pat, I have had intermittent problems with my phone lately. I wouldn't try to avoid you. All of this just came up in the last few days, I threw the 25H thing out there just to hear some opinions before preparing a proposal. I would think it would be acceptable to the Yamato supporters to allow a phase out period from 20SSH while we try to grow our numbers enough to be self sufficient. It would no longer be detrimental to have a few Sidewinders on the water in 20SSH. They're biggest issue was "what do they tell a perspective new driver". The answer would then be that the 20SSH class motor of choice is the restricted 302. It is promotable and no longer confusing. It also opens the door for them to promote the Sidewinder for its future class. If a new guy wants to race, and he's 200 +lbs. we have another option for him. The most important thing is, we all can promote both motors without hesitation. And "if" we add the Yamato 80's to run in the 25 class, it gives those guys a second class to run while helping the Sidewinder class grow.

[BmJuby]

Can someone quickly explain what this has to do with 25ssh? I have seen it mentioned a couple times about the engine (SW 20) possibly being moved to 25ssh. I plan on doing 25ssh in the near future with a 25xs. What would this mean for me? Just curious. Thanks