Don't let Region 6 kill Sidewinder

[jpro60]

Every class should have a new motor option, currently, the 20S is the motor of choice in the B classes, and what your saying is it should also be the motor of choice in 20ssH as well? So the 20S (in your mind) should be the motor of choice in 2 Classes?

I was trying to avoid the discussion of the 20S in B, because that's a whole separate issue. But if that's the way it is then emphatically YES, the 20S should be the motor of choice in two classes. What would possibly be wrong with having a new motor be the one to get for two classes? Right now it isn't anyway, so why are we future-tripping over an issue that doesn't exist?

The 302 shouldn't even be running in 20ssH, let alone be the motor of choice. The reason it was introduced to the class was to keep the Y80 alive, because people seem hellbent on the idea of keeping museum pieces relevant. Now we have a new motor for the class that can do the same job the restricted 302 was intended to do.

If anything the 302 is the motor that should be kicked out of the class!

[Big Don]

You people are ridiculous! Leave the Sidewinder in the class. I had the second fastest 20ssH in NY so I have as much reason to try to protect the 302 as anyone. But I don't want to!
The sidewinder is in the learning stages, and will get faster. Gleason's rig is only about 2-3 mph off of the pace of one of the fastest rigs in the country. From what I've seen, they'll be able to make that up sooner than later.

The only question to me is why Allen/Pavlick/whoever else is trying to make things more complicated, ironically in an effort to make things simpler. The thinking is completely bass-ackwards!
Why in the world are you advocating the restricted motor? THAT is the motor that eventually needs to be eliminated from the class. The only reason that the 302 should even be discussed in 20ss is because of the value proposition of racing it in CSH. It's really so much simpler than you're making it. If someone wants to get into 20ss as an introductory class, advocate the Y80. There is no more cost effective way to get into racing than that. Tell them that there's a new motor still working through the kinks and that in a couple years that will likely be the motor of choice (if you give it a chance!). You idiots are trying to sign a death certificate on the Sidewinder before it's even had a chance to live.

When we started racing C stock we bought a 302 because it was the available new motor. We didn't know that conventional wisdom at that time said that the only way to win CSH was with a 102. We worked with the 302, went and won a couple championships, and now everybody is running them. If we would have listened to people like Don, and the argument presented herein, we would have been spooked away from buying a 302. That would have sucked! If you give a motor a chance, and the right folks put in the work, it can and I'd say will work.

Personally I welcome the Sidewinder. I can't wait until my Y302 is only relevant on my C stock. I think it'd be freaking sweet to watch this class transition and have to come up with a new package.

Guess I was wrong about you. Thought you were above the name calling. Well done.

[D_Allen_III]

You people are ridiculous! Leave the Sidewinder in the class. I had the second fastest 20ssH in NY so I have as much reason to try to protect the 302 as anyone. But I don't want to!
The sidewinder is in the learning stages, and will get faster. Gleason's rig is only about 2-3 mph off of the pace of one of the fastest rigs in the country. From what I've seen, they'll be able to make that up sooner than later.

The only question to me is why Allen/Pavlick/whoever else is trying to make things more complicated, ironically in an effort to make things simpler. The thinking is completely bass-ackwards!
Why in the world are you advocating the restricted motor? THAT is the motor that eventually needs to be eliminated from the class. The only reason that the 302 should even be discussed in 20ss is because of the value proposition of racing it in CSH. It's really so much simpler than you're making it. If someone wants to get into 20ss as an introductory class, advocate the Y80. There is no more cost effective way to get into racing than that. Tell them that there's a new motor still working through the kinks and that in a couple years that will likely be the motor of choice (if you give it a chance!). You idiots are trying to sign a death certificate on the Sidewinder before it's even had a chance to live.

When we started racing C stock we bought a 302 because it was the available new motor. We didn't know that conventional wisdom at that time said that the only way to win CSH was with a 102. We worked with the 302, went and won a couple championships, and now everybody is running them. If we would have listened to people like Don, and the argument presented herein, we would have been spooked away from buying a 302. That would have sucked! If you give a motor a chance, and the right folks put in the work, it can and I'd say will work.

Personally I welcome the Sidewinder. I can't wait until my Y302 is only relevant on my C stock. I think it'd be freaking sweet to watch this class transition and have to come up with a new package.

Idiots? Way to hop on into the conversation in a mature tone. Nice Mike...

In regards to actually responding to your statements, you would then advocate for us to continue pushing people to buy the 302 (a currently produced engine) when the end goal is having the 20ci Sidewinder be the engine of choice? Get rid of the 302 from the 20 class and I could understand that but how do you go about telling someone "that there's a new motor still working through the kinks and that in a couple years that will likely be the motor of choice" when you don't even know that? Tell all the guys who are going to a 302 program that we were just kidding when we said that was the future of 20?

Some people are saying the engine is way off and we shouldn't even worry about it. Others say it's 2-3 off the pace and will the engine of choice in the future. Which one is it? What do we tell a new person who wants to buy an engine?

[D_Allen_III]

I have 3 other questions.

1. How many brand new people purchase sidewinders, without having owned any other racing equipment? (Serious question, I know none in region 7 and I don't think any in region 10)

2. Why was the 20ci Sidewinder originally proposed for the 25SSH class and then ended up in the 20SSH class? Was it not competitive and we felt bad for people who had them?

3. There are a lot of people advocating for the 302 engine to be out of 20SSH or for 20SSH to no longer be a class because of the "ancient" engines being used. Why has there never been a proposal for either one of these arguments at a stock commission meeting?

[kev29p]

Some people are saying the engine is way off and we shouldn't even worry about it. Others say it's 2-3 off the pace and will the engine of choice in the future. Which one is it? What do we tell a new person who wants to buy an engine?[/QUOTE]

For starters you may want to tell them NOT to read Hydroracer forums or any other social media related to stock outboard because once they start reading this crap they won't waste a dime on it.

[guedo499]

2. Why was the 20ci Sidewinder originally proposed for the 25SSH class and then ended up in the 20SSH class? Was it not competitive and we felt bad for people who had them?

An accurate answer to this question would be appreciated.

Thank you, John.

[G Stillwill]

I know one thing if I was a new person looking for a sport to get into after reading all this it sure wouldnt be boat racing

[jpro60]

Allow me to start by saying that one sentiment in my prior post was uncalled for, I'll buy ya a beer and we can hug and make up.

In regards to actually responding to your statements, you would then advocate for us to continue pushing people to buy the 302 (a currently produced engine) when the end goal is having the 20ci Sidewinder be the engine of choice?

Apparently you misunderstood my post. I'm saying that I would NOT advocate for the 302 in 20ssH, except as a value added to using the motor in CSH.

Get rid of the 302 from the 20 class and I could understand that but how do you go about telling someone "that there's a new motor still working through the kinks and that in a couple years that will likely be the motor of choice" when you don't even know that?

I agree, get the 302 out of the class! Obviously no one can say for sure that the 20S will ever hit the magic speed to keep up with the 80 (because that should be the benchmark, not the 302). But we sure as heck should give it a chance. That's what frustrates me the most about this whole conversation is that you're advocating killing the motor out of the class before it's even had a chance!!!

Some people are saying the engine is way off and we shouldn't even worry about it. Others say it's 2-3 off the pace and will the engine of choice in the future. Which one is it? What do we tell a new person who wants to buy an engine?

We can't say for sure which one it is, until we give the motor a chance
What to tell people about engines is as simple or hard as you want to make it. I prefer simple. So lets say someone is interested in 20ss? Here's the approach I would take:
Yamato 80 - most cost effective option for the class, only allows you to run the one class.
Yamato 302 - current CSH motor, value added to stock racing is the ability to run it in 20ss. Even more value in the fact that you can run it in Mod and PRO
Sidewinder 20 - Again good value because it can be used in both BSH and 20ssh. (as long as we don't screw things up and remove it from 20ss) Be up front and tell them that you can run up front in B, and that 20 is still a work in progress with an unknown finishing point. But, I'd put up $20 saying that it could be a 64mph (ballpark competitive 20 speed) motor within 5 years.

So get a 302 if you want to run a slightly bigger boat at slightly faster speeds, and step down to 20. Get a Sidewinder if you want to run a smaller boat at slower speeds, and also step up to 20. Get an 80 if 20ss is the only class you want to run, and personally I would steer people away from that because you don't get the multiple chances to run with one motor.

[Racerkyle20]

3. There are a lot of people advocating for the 302 engine to be out of 20SSH or for 20SSH to no longer be a class because of the "ancient" engines being used. Why has there never been a proposal for either one of these arguments at a stock commission meeting?

There has. It was called the Sutherland plan....

[jpro60]

3. There are a lot of people advocating for the 302 engine to be out of 20SSH or for 20SSH to no longer be a class because of the "ancient" engines being used. Why has there never been a proposal for either one of these arguments at a stock commission meeting?

I'm going to say that it's because a viable alternative to the 302 hasn't been present until now, and the issue hasn't come to a head until now.

I'll get something in to my commissioners before the meeting proposing either one of those things or both.

We obviously have to walk a tight-rope here (what's new). All I have to do is look into my own backyard to see that 20ss is very popular as a way for people with 302s to get more racing in. So you're hesitant to legislate it out of the class. But quite honestly people could run OSY with the same rig and get seat time that way.

My thinking is something along these lines:
First and foremost, leave the Sidewinder in the class and give it a chance to grow. Secondly, slow the 302s down just enough so that they're not the motor of choice (maybe a 3/4" height would get you close?) Then you see what happens. Either there's enough 80s that would come back out of the box in order to justify the class' existence, and/or the Sidewinder comes along and helps to keep the class viable. Or the class fades out, people with 302s can run C, people with Sidewinder 20s have a kick-ass B motor, and we have a shorter, less confusing, race day that allows us to work toward having a more marketable product, or you can run three heats and get people more time in their boats for their money. (holy run on sentence)

Beyond all that my big rub with this whole deal is that we're trying to fix a problem that doesn't exist. I don't know if this is due to over-complicating things, future-tripping or what?

I've presented my opinion, said what I have to say, and hope to mostly stay out of this fray from here on. I hope everyone has a great winter!

[dholt]

Pat,
If you look at my posts I never talk about value proposition for the 302. Or what is or isn't fair.

0sy is a pro class, no bearing on a stock outboard discussion. And 302stock is worthless engine in other stock classes.

And I forgot to mention 20SW is good for 25ssr. So 3 options for it.

By the way, how would everyone else respond to big Don's scenario above with a newbie? You really telling him to get $4500 engine that's 2-3 years from winning at best?

[tcf284]

I say leave all 3 motors in it opens options for both drivers to get more seat time at races with the 20 s available for 2 classes in hydro and the 302 to be available in 2 classes in hydro and until one or the other becomes completely dominant where is the problem and if one becomes more dominant adapt the rules to equealize them ,nut it is also beneficial for the clubs to ,lets face it driver attendance isnt getting better but this way clubs can receive more entry money per event having these drivers with motors that arent set for just one class ,the y80 will eventually disappear on its own due to its age i'venascar seen collecter with these motors so less and less is in circulation so let it just go in its own due time ,nascar runs 3 different engines ford,chevy,and toyota so they just tweek a little here and there to keep them as equeal as possible ,honestly perfection is only an illusion nut working together keep options open for drivers is about the only way to try and maintain our membership unfortunately I live in fl where stock outboard has all but died ,so for me to race I have to travel **** near 10 hours each way to race in region 4 I race both 20ssh and csh take one away and how much incentive do i have to spend $400 + per trip for 4 heats all weekend thats why i think more engine options per class isnt all that bad

[daveracerdsh]

302ssh

Dana...one minor point of interest. The 302SSH motor is actually legal in other classes to run. You put a blueprinted foot under it and it's good to go. Getting off topic 20SSH wise, but remember these motors are gone thru by TJ and should be fast in other classes if a driver chooses to either borrow a gearcase or buy another foot. Dave

[pav225]

Quote of the Year

First off, let me just say, I really don't care what class it's in, I love racing my Sidewinder 20. And, I LOVE RACING BOATS!

Awesome! Seriously, awesome Ryan.

[fishinworm]

302,20s

Why not just move the 20s and the 302 over to 25ss .
y80s no longer have a chance.
Remember more cubic inch more horsepower.
restrictor plates don't work the same in all engines.