Don't let Region 6 kill Sidewinder

[Big Don]

As a matter of record Reed owns 2 302's. I am the one with 2 on order. Just need to know what we are doing here, can't continue to chase a moving target.

I knew that, temporary brain fart. Sorry.

And I agree on the moving target, that is why we are taking the stance we are.

[Big Don]

3 - 302's
4 - 15 cubic in Hot Rods
1 Y80
Nothing on order

I am about the process, what will grow the sport we can all debate. I think the petition is wrong, I think the way the parity committee rule is written is wrong, I think changing the pickle rule or even having one is wrong, most of the time I think Ed Hearn is wrong.

I have a CSR and a CSH and a BSR. I don't own a sidewinder.

There are no new 302's for sale, you could not afford one.

There is no reason to mail this petition one at a time...... buy some mailing labels from APBA for all the 20SSH drivers and mail it to all of them. Why rely on Hydro Racer to get to only a few bog debaters...... for those folks attach it here to print and read.

How good is that 80? Is it for sale? Maybe I am interested.

And D3 is correct the only way to get a mailing list is the Chairman has to request it. We were battling a time crunch so I googled 103 drivers names instead of working on racing stuff. I came up with about 67 of them.

[Big Don]

I don't thing 20ssH should be done away with any time in the forseeable future. I just consider it a long term eventuality.

Ryan send me your address so I can send you a petition

[14-H]

Why oppose it now? .

I suppose you think Obamacare is the "law of the land" and we should just "deal with it", huh?

[14-H]

I have a solution that I think will make everybody "somewhat happy". I don't have time right now to propose it (I'm at work, busy day) but I will as soon as I have a chance.

Please send one of these to Congress.

[14-H]

Reason for this petition...

The reason for this petition is that the 20SSH drivers are petrified that their class is going to be treated with the same cracker-box parity decisions that have been made in the A and B classes. The Sidewinders are 2 mph faster than everything else and no one is doing anything about it. This would not be a problem if the faster engines ran correctly but they don't and anyone who says they don't have problems is full of crap.

BTW: Parity can work. It worked in J Classes, it worked in AXS classes, it worked in D stock classes.

[reed28n]

2 classes one motor with a restrictor

That's exactly what the sidewinder is now. But you and a small group have decided that only Yamato should be available in that form.

Let's put the height of the 302 at 3/4 in the 20ssh class, make all those 80's compete again, save all the drivers from themselves by letting their motors run without steaming. Or are you recommending that the Elek's should all get 302's??

To answer your retort to Ryan's post, why do we only look at multiple classes with the same equipment, why not fewer classes and multiple races....steve Noury has reformed his Region 1 races to exactly that formula and it works

[sponsonhead]

Sidewinder West Speaks Up

As a 20S Sidewinder owner who fields an outfit in 20SSH in Region 10 (the only 20S owner on the West Coast), let me offer a few comments.

I purchased the Sidewinder 20S because I believe in Racing Outboards LLC. I purchased the Sidewinder 20S because I believe in APBA Stock Outboard. I purchased the 20S because I believe in the FUTURE of Stock Outboard, and that the only way to invest in the future of Stock Outboard is to support new manufacturers and new equipment. If you don't believe this, I can also mention that I owned one of the very first 302 Yamatos in Region 10 in 1997. It took some years, but that investment paid off. But that's another story.

Our own story of running the Sidewinder has been a long, challenging road. We bought the motor used from someone in Region who had given up on it. We got the motor, had it gone through by Racing Outboards and started racing it at the beginning of the year. We started at the first race running 55 mph and a cloud of dust in 20SSH. After learning a few subtle idiosyncracies of the motor, replacing a power pack, and over the course of the season trying three different hulls and countless propellers, we ended up running 61-62 mph, are still searching for the magic propeller, and with a heavy driver, are able to run in the upper mid pack in a region with more 20SSH's than anywhere else in the US (R10 frequently has over 20 boats running 20SSH, with elim heats, and almost all running a restricted 302). We still have a TON of work to do to see real "player" speed with this rig. We are not afraid of doing the work. We've done it before.

In the course of running our 20S over the season, we found that as we improved it, our local brethren started paying more attention to us. To my knowledge, nobody is scared of us. I did have one of the crew chiefs of a top-shelf 20SSH say to me that since he knows the engine can run in both 20SSH and BSH, he would seriously consider getting one, because of the value proposition of running the motor in two classes. Another crew chief has a driver who is moving up into faster classes from J/A. They bought a C Stock rig that was previously very competitive out here. Since they have run it, it has been relegated to be a back marker, because the driver does not have the physical strength to muscle the boat around in a full field of Yamato-sized boats, whether it's in 20, C or OSY. To them, the Sidewinder is appealing because if they ran it in B Stock, their driver can go faster than A in a boat that is easier to control and a much better ride. Now, there is no B Stock class at present west of the Mississippi; let alone in Region 10. We have an opportunity to grow something new and cool here...but only if there is a value proposition to the buyer. Nobody wants to be the only B Stock owner on the West Coast...that's me, and it's lonelier than being the Maytag repairman.

Back to 20SSH--let's look at the facts: The motor has been legal for the past three seasons in 20SSH. Nobody has won a Nationals. Nobody has set a record, either a competition record or a straightaway record. Nobody has won a Divisionals. Heck, there hasn't even been a Nationals Final Qualifier in 20SSH. Truly, if a person's goal was to dominate in 20SSH, all the evidence appears that the way to NOT dominate is to buy a Sidewinder. What are you afraid of?

In my opinion, the current grade of the Sidewinder 20S is Incomplete. I hear all this talk about how it's only a matter of time before it will DESTROY the class. It took TEN YEARS for a restricted 302 to win a Nationals in 20SSH. It took NINE YEARS for a Tohatsu to win a Nationals in DSH, despite complaints, boycotts, tantrums and endless whining. It is entirely possible that over time, the Sidewinder may surpass the performance of the Yamato in 20SSH. But anybody who says the end is near is being woefully short sighted.

There has to be a win-win in all of this, without the scorched-earth rhetoric of petitions and boycotts. I would suggest a timed, phased TRANSITION to make the 20S the motor of choice in 25SSH, gradually phasing out of 20SSH as we Sidewinder 20 owners (present and future) work on and improve its performance. A three-to-five year period should be adequate, based on history with other classes. 25SSH has become all but a local class, is in a similar speed range, and motors have not been available in years (How many were at Nationals?). Bring the Merc 25SSH speeds down by adding restrictor plates, increasing weights, lowering transom heights, and so forth until the Sidewinder 20 becomes the motor of choice. This allows Merc owners a place to race their motors, but offers the performance incentive to those purchase and race the Sidewinder. The J classes did the same thing with the Mercury over the OMC, why can't it work here? In the meantime, keep the 20S in 20SSH, and give the Parity Committee and the SORC the teeth to decide when it's time to move it permanently over to 25SSH.

And yes, I know that the 20S is at present a legal motor in 25SSH, but we need to keep it in 20SSH short term because 20SSH runs all over the US. Nobody is going to buy a 20S with the intention of running 25SSH if they do not live in the Northeast or Wisconsin. The motor needs to be in a viable class that runs all over, so that numbers grow and it can be viable standing on its own legs over time.

Stock Outboard NEEDS new motors and NEEDS new Manufacturers. It needs to RACE, not create fear-mongering, distrust among its members and more Gerrymandering politics. Stock Outboard members NEED to support the manufacturers and partner with them, not attack and drive them away. Do NOT throw the Sidewinder baby out with the bathwater.

-Patrick Gleason
R-19

[reed28n]

It's all crap

The reason for this petition is that the 20SSH drivers are petrified that their class is going to be treated with the same cracker-box parity decisions that have been made in the A and B classes. The Sidewinders are 2 mph faster than everything else and no one is doing anything about it. This would not be a problem if the faster engines ran correctly but they don't and anyone who says they don't have problems is full of crap.

BTW: Parity can work. It worked in J Classes, it worked in AXS classes, it worked in D stock classes.

The parity rule (the way it is written) is crap. How has such a motor that has run like such crap posed such a threat to all these veteran boat racers? There was never any parity attempted in AXS and J so that is crap. The J committee made no attempt they let the Mercury dominate.

[dholt]

Scott is right. There was no attempt at parity in J and AX.

The Mercury was left to dominate...which it has.

And that's exactly what has/will happen with any class with multiple engines. One will always have an advantage.

Can you all think for a moment about all the negative feelings and response by drivers (veterans and newcomers alike) when rules are constantly chaning to try to keep 2 different engines compatible???

NASCAR has multi millions in their budget and they STILL can't make it happen. It's a MOVING target. You never reach the finish line. How in hell would a bunch of hobbyists ever achieve parity between 2-3 different engines? Impossible. That's why it's never happened. Wasn't anyone watching BSH/BSR at Whitney Pt and Dayton? The restricted SW smoked the Hot Rods. So now what? Add a smaller restrictor to the SW and piss off all the guys that dropped $4500 on the engine? That's not wise. Talk about uncertainty. How'd you like the rules constantly changing in an attempt at parity. No way, no how.

A great running Merc will beat a great Yamato in 25ssR.
A great 302 will beat a great Y 80 in 20ssH.
A great Tohatsu will beat a great Merc in DSH....and so on and so on.


And by they way...buy a 15SW and race 2 classes. ASH/ASR. Buy a 20SW, race BSH/BSR. There is your return on investment. It only takes 3-4 boats to get the B classes going out west. Why would anyone want to buy a
20SW and race 20ssH if they have no chance of winning? Run it in BSH and BSR and dominate. What is better than that?

[D_Allen_III]

That's exactly what the sidewinder is now. But you and a small group have decided that only Yamato should be available in that form.

Let's put the height of the 302 at 3/4 in the 20ssh class, make all those 80's compete again, save all the drivers from themselves by letting their motors run without steaming. Or are you recommending that the Elek's should all get 302's??

To answer your retort to Ryan's post, why do we only look at multiple classes with the same equipment, why not fewer classes and multiple races....steve Noury has reformed his Region 1 races to exactly that formula and it works

You keep referring to "you", is the "you" part referring to me? I haven't been on a commission since 2005 or 2006, so I'm not sure how I've been making choices for the category besides voting people in. Apparently I have much more power than I realize. Awesome!

I would recommend Elek's new racers to make a choice based on how much the want to spend and what what kind of engine to buy. I'd tell them the 80 can only run in 20ssh and the 302 could run in multiple classes. More bang for their buck. They also have to spend more money on the 302. What I wouldn't do is confuse them with having a 3rd engine in the class that may or not perform down the road to possibly scare them away. The hotrod guys didn't have anything to worry about either, but then overnight a completely new engine was dropped into the class and their world changed overnight.

When 15 people are racing the 20ci in the 20SSH and some commission decides that they want that engine to be the engine of choice after is has gained another 2 mph (which it will), how do we know the height of the Yamatos won't be dropped to 1 1/4"?

I think what Noury has been doing is an awesome idea, but the problem is that most regions can just make that jump overnight. Region 1 was also very low in numbers so it could rebuild in what ever format they wanted. I wish marathons would not have disappeared form the majority of the country because that form of racing is a spectator friendly; bang for your buck race. I wish we had a hydro class that was forced to race with 2 feet bigger boats so we didn't have to worry about wind holds, rough water and only racing 3 laps because it gets too rough after 3.

[Big Don]

It’s not that anyone is afraid of the Sidewinder winning that I know of. It’s the confusion that it causes when you have two readily available engines.

This is how a conversation this summer went with a guy who was interested. I’ll keep it short but I think it will prove our point. Remember this is the condensed version.

New person, So if I want to run this 20 class what do I need to buy.
Me: Well you could buy an 80 engine like the one we just ran, you can buy them for about 1200.00. As a matter of fact I would sell you the one we just ran for 1200.00. But I highly suggest you go the 302 direction because the 80 engine while inexpensive and still competitive is 40 years old. The 302 engine has won the last two nationals, that’s where I think the class is heading.
NP: Could we buy a 80 and then in a few years buy a 302 once we learn more.
Me: Absolutely. But I also need to tell you there is a new engine out there called a Sidewinder it looks fairly similar to that engine on that boat over there (Hot Rod) the biggest difference is the carb is on the side vs being on the front. But the Sidewinder is a legal engine in this class.
NP: How much are they and how come no one had one out there.
Me: Well they are 4800.00 and the reason no one has one is because they are still in the infant stage and all the bugs are not worked out to be competitive.
NP: Wow, that is a big difference, once they figure that out will guys buy them.
Me: Not sure on that. (I was starting to feel uneasy and knew I was about to confuse this poor guy and his kid)
NP: So if I understand you correctly you don’t really know if I should buy a 302 or a what did you call it, if we don’t go with the engine you would sell us?
Me: It was the Sidewinder.
NP: So, what do we buy?
Me: Well, it depends on your budget, but I would really recommend the 302.
NP: And why not the Sidewinder…
Me: repeat everything again…..
NP: So what happens if we buy an 80 and in a year or so we buy a 302 and then in a few years the Sidewinder is the engine to have.
Me: Well you would have to make that decision.
NP: Hmmm, I can see that I have a lot to think about.

This went on for 10 minutes, I was trying to figure out what to do with this guy because I was not sure.

Fast forward a month, I called the guy and he decided to go a different direction. Some cheap race car.

This is when I said to Mike, we have to get the Sidewinder out of 20, it’s confusing the crap out of me and I couldn’t sell this guy, we don’t need it, we have the 302.

[jpro60]

You people are ridiculous! Leave the Sidewinder in the class. I had the second fastest 20ssH in NY so I have as much reason to try to protect the 302 as anyone. But I don't want to!
The sidewinder is in the learning stages, and will get faster. Gleason's rig is only about 2-3 mph off of the pace of one of the fastest rigs in the country. From what I've seen, they'll be able to make that up sooner than later.

The only question to me is why Allen/Pavlick/whoever else is trying to make things more complicated, ironically in an effort to make things simpler. The thinking is completely bass-ackwards!
Why in the world are you advocating the restricted motor? THAT is the motor that eventually needs to be eliminated from the class. The only reason that the 302 should even be discussed in 20ss is because of the value proposition of racing it in CSH. It's really so much simpler than you're making it. If someone wants to get into 20ss as an introductory class, advocate the Y80. There is no more cost effective way to get into racing than that. Tell them that there's a new motor still working through the kinks and that in a couple years that will likely be the motor of choice (if you give it a chance!). You are trying to sign a death certificate on the Sidewinder before it's even had a chance to live.

When we started racing C stock we bought a 302 because it was the available new motor. We didn't know that conventional wisdom at that time said that the only way to win CSH was with a 102. We worked with the 302, went and won a couple championships, and now everybody is running them. If we would have listened to people like Don, and the argument presented herein, we would have been spooked away from buying a 302. That would have sucked! If you give a motor a chance, and the right folks put in the work, it can and I'd say will work.

Personally I welcome the Sidewinder. I can't wait until my Y302 is only relevant on my C stock. I think it'd be freaking sweet to watch this class transition and have to come up with a new package.

[sponsonhead]

And by they way...buy a 15SW and race 2 classes. ASH/ASR. Buy a 20SW, race BSH/BSR. There is your return on investment.

So, what you are saying is 2 classes alone should be enough of a value proposition. Then why is the 302 owner afforded the opportunity to run 5 classes (CSH/CSR/20SSH/25SSR/OSY400)?

Doesn't seem very fair to me.

R-19

[Apachemax]

You people are ridiculous! Leave the Sidewinder in the class. I had the second fastest 20ssH in NY so I have as much reason to try to protect the 302 as anyone. But I don't want to!
The sidewinder is in the learning stages, and will get faster. Gleason's rig is only about 2-3 mph off of the pace of one of the fastest rigs in the country. From what I've seen, they'll be able to make that up sooner than later.

The only question to me is why Allen/Pavlick/whoever else is trying to make things more complicated, ironically in an effort to make things simpler. The thinking is completely bass-ackwards!
Why in the world are you advocating the restricted motor? THAT is the motor that eventually needs to be eliminated from the class. The only reason that the 302 should even be discussed in 20ss is because of the value proposition of racing it in CSH. It's really so much simpler than you're making it. If someone wants to get into 20ss as an introductory class, advocate the Y80. There is no more cost effective way to get into racing than that. Tell them that there's a new motor still working through the kinks and that in a couple years that will likely be the motor of choice (if you give it a chance!). You idiots are trying to sign a death certificate on the Sidewinder before it's even had a chance to live.

When we started racing C stock we bought a 302 because it was the available new motor. We didn't know that conventional wisdom at that time said that the only way to win CSH was with a 102. We worked with the 302, went and won a couple championships, and now everybody is running them. If we would have listened to people like Don, and the argument presented herein, we would have been spooked away from buying a 302. That would have sucked! If you give a motor a chance, and the right folks put in the work, it can and I'd say will work.

Personally I welcome the Sidewinder. I can't wait until my Y302 is only relevant on my C stock. I think it'd be freaking sweet to watch this class transition and have to come up with a new package.

Every class should have a new motor option, currently, the 20S is the motor of choice in the B classes, and what your saying is it should also be the motor of choice in 20ssH as well? So the 20S (in your mind) should be the motor of choice in 2 Classes?