Don't let Region 6 kill Sidewinder

[Matt Dagostino]

????

Reed is on a flight, PAUSE the BATTLE

Are you still Reed's Secretary......man up!!

[14J]

Are you still Reed's Secretary......man up!!

Boat discounts my friend, i'm as cheap as everyone else

[dholt]

Since my boy Scott dragged my name into it...how can I not chime in here? (sarcasm, buddy.)

This issue seems pretty clear cut.

1. Parity between 2 engines in the same class has NEVER happend in my 45 years of watching and 37 years of racing in Stock. Now you expect 3 engines to be compatible (80, 302, SW?) 1 engine must be faster than the other...or NO ONE will purchase the other option! Who the hell would buy a 302 if it gets waxed by a SW...or vice versa???

2. There is a currently produced, brand new engine available for 20ssh...the Yamato 302. Replaces the 35 year old Y-80. Tough pill to swallow for me and others, but we have done/are doing it if you want to win.

3. The 20SW has TWO classes in which you can use the engine. BSH and BSR. Why is that not satisfactory? And don't bring the "more bang for your buck" arugement into it. Because I though price was not a factor, right? Racing is expensive...so can't use that as an excuse. That's what I have read from many people. I can say I would be OUT on spending $4500 on a race motor...when $2800 was an option. See you on the golf course if that was the only option.

4. New blood is necessary for survival. Absolutely. New equipment is linked to that. 'A' classes-SW. 'B' classes-SW. 20ssH- 302. CSH/CSR-302. 'D'-Tohatsu. There you go. Where is the problem???

5. The idea that new guys should be able to compete right off the street is great, but everyone here knows that's a fallacy. You have got to put in the work/time or you have NO CHANCE. Doesn't matter how new your engine is. I just bought a 302 in August. Took a day off work to go test in September and the thing is rolling in 20 and CSH. Had no idea what the engine was, but took the time to work it out. So, this premise of magic engines/protecting the "special" rigs, competing to win right off the street is BS. You've got to get off your AZZ if you want to win. Writing a check and dropping the engine on the transom is a million miles from that.

6. Just because a decision was made previously, doesn't mean it was the right decision. Anyone remember "New" Coke? How'd that decision turn out? Or the USFL?


7. For classes on life support, new equipment is vital. That was the case for BSH and BSR. Either that or kill it...ie 25ssH! There is a need for a 60 mph, lightweight runabout class...that's BSR. Classes with dwindling equipment need help. 20ssH doesn't fall into that category.

[reed28n]

Yamato?

You do realize that the 302 engine which is still a current engine, has won the last 2 20SSH championships, is the essentially the only engine used in region 10 for 20SSH and is becoming the engine of choice on the national level right? This has nothing to do with saving the 80 engine. The 80 has been getting phased out for 5+ years now and runs about 2 mph slower top speed than the restricted 302 engine. 20SSH is the only class we have in stock outboard that has any kind of parity between 2 different engines in the class.

I think your facts are fairly off base in regards to the motive and the purpose of the petition.

We all know that the only way a manufacture can sell engines is to have the engines be the fastest one competing and be the engine of choice for that class. How do we expect to have both the Yamato and Sidewinder be the engine of choice for people to choose?

I would have been irate if I was Ron Montoya who was sitting on a shed full of engines when a new engine was also approved for the class. We never needed the 20ci sidewinder for 20SSH and unfortunately a commission decided to approve it anyway.

BSH, BSR and ASH are prime examples of how difficult it is to find parity between engines and we are going to expect the commission and parity committees to some how work it out between 3 engines.

I get the fact the 20ci hasn't performed close to the 80 or 302 at this point, but what is the eventual plan? We always talk about having direction and making progress, what do we think will be good for the 20ci Sidewinder? Will it always run 3 mph slower and will people want to race? I tend to think not, especially since this is called boat racing.

So if all goes as planned for the sidewinder and it gets faster and becomes competitive, say 2 years down the road, we are going to have a major problem on our hand. Which one should be considered the primary engine? The 302 of the 20ci Sidewinder? Let the commission at the time decide? Made up of representatives serving different regions, who need different things and have different opinions? Have the manufactures come in and give they pitch and see what people think?

Why would we even put ourselves in that predicament if we don't need it based on the fact that we have a 302 engine that already fits the need. I just don't understand why we would want 2 current production engines in one class.

No one will deny the 302 is an awesome engine. How many classes does it need to be the motor of choice? Yamato will produce engines with or without sales to APBA. With your statements above and all of your one motor one class logic and a 5 yr plan, you have completely contradicted your need to unwind everything the commission did in 2008-09. The Ed Hearn commission voted on the "what will it hurt to have all these motors" line. Now you have decided that we were on the right track 5 yrs ago .... Make up your mind.... Submit your petition, follow the rule you chose to follow and the path that is good for you. Make sure that the process is followed and make sure all members have the opportunity to have their voice heard.....

[Big Don]

If you are a 20SSH driver in 2013 and you want a copy of the petition send me your mailing address & I would be happy to send you one.

I looked every driver up on google and if I could figure out what address was yours I sent you one.

We are not trying to be sneaky, we have been open with this, all SORC memebers were sent a copy. If you don't want me to send you a copy contact your local SORC Rep and he'll be happy to send it to you.

[Hutch06]

Cost

I saw someone comment that "we don't need people racing who don't have money" - that person must have edited or removed their post as I don't see it anymore. Please keep on echoing this statement - that way we can continue the thought that you have to have a thick pocketbook to compete

Please tell me how much money I must have to race Stock Outboard as a newbie? I am verrryyyy interested to hear.

The last time I checked also, according to Racing Outboards Webpage a 20 CI is closer to $5K.

[Big Don]

That post was on here and it is gone now. Pretty messed up thinking. But maybe that is what they want...? then again maybe they realized how messed up that thinking is and took it down.

[Big Don]

who knows what tomorrow might bring as you infer. Hell, Yamato, Sidewinder and Mercury may all dissapear...........

I love that argument, NOT…none of us know what tomorrow will bring so let's not use that argument any longer for the manufactures.

Or that, "You're just protecting your trailer box". Because if that is the case we could now argue that is what Reed is doing, now that we know he has 2 on order, but we won't.

[reed28n]

Reed's Inventory

I love that argument, NOT…none of us know what tomorrow will bring so let's not use that argument any longer for the manufactures.

Or that, "You're just protecting your trailer box". Because if that is the case we could now argue that is what Reed is doing, now that we know he has 2 on order, but we won't.

3 - 302's
4 - 15 cubic in Hot Rods
1 Y80
Nothing on order

I am about the process, what will grow the sport we can all debate. I think the petition is wrong, I think the way the parity committee rule is written is wrong, I think changing the pickle rule or even having one is wrong, most of the time I think Ed Hearn is wrong.

I have a CSR and a CSH and a BSR. I don't own a sidewinder.

There are no new 302's for sale, you could not afford one.

There is no reason to mail this petition one at a time...... buy some mailing labels from APBA for all the 20SSH drivers and mail it to all of them. Why rely on Hydro Racer to get to only a few bog debaters...... for those folks attach it here to print and read.

[D_Allen_III]

We tried, you can only get the addresses from APBA if you are the Chairman of the class. That's why Big Don used all of his time to try and find as many as he could on the internet and mail them out. He also sent it to all commissioners so they could get it to the appropriate constituents.

[ryan_4z]

Hello Friends!

First off, let me just say, I really don't care what class it's in, I love racing my Sidewinder 20. And, I LOVE RACING BOATS!

That being said, I do have an opinion, as a racer, on this subject. I have to say, I think it is in the best interest of: the 20ssH class, Stock Outboard, boat racing, Sidewinder and Yamato and all the racers involved, to remove the Sidewinder from the 20ssH class. I say this for two reasons.

1)The 20ssH class was a class that was designed just for the Yamato 80. The 302 has been allowed to ease the death, but when the Yamato 80 is gone, so should be the 20 class. And that will be easy to do when everyone is running C, too, anyway. Three motors is ridiculous in one class, especially if we should be aiming for one.

2)The B class is the obvious home for this motor. The B class was, until 20 years ago, a 20 c.i. class that went close to C speeds on smaller boats. (The 20 class was made because the Yamato didn't fit here.) The Hot Rod is dead. Its over guys, sorry. Return the class to what it was. This is the ideal class for the expert boat racer and the new driver alike. Remove the restrictor, it's only about a half a mile an hour faster and it makes it easier to tune. (Not that, in my experiece, the B has been difficult. We have not changed the carburetor all year and have run consistently. In the past, I have always called Ed Runne to deal with tuning issues as I know nothing about tuning a motor. After the manifold change we have experienced no issues. I would recommend this motor to anyone.) If we can accept the death of the Hot Rod in Stock, then this class can be the one true home of the Sidewinder.


Prior to the mid-seventies, when Stock Outboard began it's slow decline, the sport had a simple J,A,B,C,D class structure, with one or two motors per class. The Category did not concern itself with the comparable costs of the engines, that was between the manufacturer and the purchaser. Which engine was of preference was not determined by a parity committee, but by the engineers, and the drivers.
By the seventies the sport had grown large enough to attract further attention from outboard manufacturers. What happened? No one wanted to switch motors, they didn't want to get rid of what they had. But, they all bought the new motors anyway, and raced 15ssH, and 25ssR and 35ssH and 20ssR and all of a sudden the stock outboard program had 18 classes instead of 10 and fast forward to now and do you see what I'm getting at here?
(Please don't take this as me romanticizing about the golden days of Stock Outboard. I simply believe that a simple, sellable sport will grow now as it did in the past. A product must be sellable to a consumer. It must be worth the price-tag.)
J/AX, A, B, C, D We've got new motors for all these classes, we've got an opportunity to see our sport be re-born right before our eyes, but only if we can let the past die.

[14J]

I love that argument, NOT…none of us know what tomorrow will bring so let's not use that argument any longer for the manufactures.

Or that, "You're just protecting your trailer box". Because if that is the case we could now argue that is what Reed is doing, now that we know he has 2 on order, but we won't.

As a matter of record Reed owns 2 302's. I am the one with 2 on order. Just need to know what we are doing here, can't continue to chase a moving target.

[D_Allen_III]

No one will deny the 302 is an awesome engine. How many classes does it need to be the motor of choice? Yamato will produce engines with or without sales to APBA. With your statements above and all of your one motor one class logic and a 5 yr plan, you have completely contradicted your need to unwind everything the commission did in 2008-09. The Ed Hearn commission voted on the "what will it hurt to have all these motors" line. Now you have decided that we were on the right track 5 yrs ago .... Make up your mind.... Submit your petition, follow the rule you chose to follow and the path that is good for you. Make sure that the process is followed and make sure all members have the opportunity to have their voice heard.....

The "what will it hurt to have all these motors" mentality was also based off the fact that we assumed all the motors we were being presented would run reliably with out having numerous modifications made. What is the plan for the 15 SWs now? Switch them to a 20ci? A lot has changed between then and now Scott, so don't try selling me that we had a plan set up and could stuck to it. The original plan had a 15ci Sidewinder as the only engine they were producing, and now it's the only one that isn't even being sold. Yourself, John Runne, and others have insisted we have a long term plan. I agree, we should have, but we haven't done that and it is difficult to set too much in stone with how quick things change.

Every year we get a new commission, who has the power to reverse or change anything they want. That is a very unfortunate part about our decision making process, because no commission has to be loyal to any past choices. Until that changes, don't expect people to follow some kind of loyalty to past decisions.

Also, a two motor plan might work. It won't be perfect as Dana stated previously, but two is a lot more manageable than three.

[D_Allen_III]

As a matter of record Reed owns 2 302's. I am the one with 2 on order. Just need to know what we are doing here, can't continue to chase a moving target.

I believe this petition would be preventing the target from moving. The 302 should be the engine of choice in 20ssh, and I believe it currently is.

[D_Allen_III]

Ryan,
I think you and I are part of a small group of people in the 25-35 age demographic who have had relatives race in some form or another for our entire lives and have grown up around it. We often times are considered the bad guys because we obviously have an increased advantage growing up around it, revolving our lives around, thinking about it non stop, taking it personally that the sport has lost members for our entire lives. Being a part of that group, we also care about this sport more than most people could ever understand.

It sucks, it really does. The part is when we make choices consistently that eliminate or drive more people away, than it does to gain people. To get a new person takes A LOT of work, ask the Elek Hutchinsons of the world. To keep someone, takes work, but not nearly as much as it does to get a newbie.

At least with your plan, there is a plan. I'd ask the one big question though, what does a club do to bring in money so every race doesn't take a $2,000 loss. For example, if you eliminate 20SSH, you take a person like me who runs 2 classes per weekend (20 and C) down to 1 class. I'm not the only person who would be in this situation, but the club just lost half the money they were bringing in. Yes, I could go get another class going, but it's going to be at least a $5,000 investment.

Many of the racers we have today are not willing to do that. They love the sport enough to keep racing the 1 class, but can't afford to go and just drop that kind of money. Do we kill the clubs by doing it? Do we make a guy who has to drive 7 hours to a race that usually runs 2 classes at now only run 1? Is it worth his time to even go any more?

Every region is different and even within the regions the economic base of the racers varies. We need to keep in mind that 2 entries from a guy making $35,000 a year scraping by to just make it to a race is the same as 2 entries from the rich guy with his brand new boat, perfect paint job, enclosed trailer and A class motor home.

These are hypothetical questions that need answers, but they only way we get answers is by actually doing it and that risk could cost us all the sport we love and live for.

Years ago I heard few people mention that we have to stop thinking about the people we have racing and start thinking about ways to get new people racing. Although I think new racers is INCREDIBLY important, keeping the people we have needs to be the number one goal, because without them a club and the sport can die overnight.