SORC Please Consider "Parity"

[guedo499]

Amazing how people figure they know the "facts" based on their own experience. I do not agree with your conclusion.

Charlie

Charlie, you're absolutely right, my opinions are based on my own experience. What do they say, opinion are like assholes and armpits - everyone has them and they all stink.

But, if you look at the podium from the last couple of years in CSH, the 102 has been the dominate motor. That's because they are faster in a straight line and whoever gets the first turn first usually wins.

Mike started this thread to discuss parity; my comments about parity, specifically the 102 vs the 302, should be read as: There should NOT be parity in a class at all - the new, available motor should be the dominate, faster motor after three/four years of on course R&D, at which time the R&D cycle has developed out of its infancy. That's not to say the two motors should not be close in speed and if you use the older motor you can have a chance to win.

The 302 is way past the infancy stage of on-course R&D, and by my stated opinion, therefore should be the clearly dominate motor, which it is not. The 102 has us searching in the back of the garages, riddled with spider webs and mold, searching for that elusive piston set you knew you had once upon a time.

The 302, when restricted, is the dominate motor in CSR, 25ssr and 20ssH (where torque is King) and that should be the case for the simple fact that you can go buy one today. I know a Merc won 25 this year (I loved the tears of joy at the banquet), and in a convoluted class with as many different motor/weight options you can run, the 302 is showing it's weight in gold as the motor of choice - it wasn't that way 3 years ago, but the natural R&D, as well as the natural attrition has vaulted the 302 to that position.

I love boat racing and I'm willing to give up my selfish desires for the best of our racing family. I have (3) 44xs, (2) 25xs, (3) 102's, (3) 80's, (2) OMC A's in my motor box and ALL of these motors should NOT be the motor of choice in their respective classes.

[daveracerdsh]

Courses

Team 222R....I am a little confused about your statement concerning triangle courses....I do set up the majority of courses for Seattle Outboard races...and I usually set them up at around a mile, which is just about where the 44XS starts to have an advantage. The 2 races we run a triangle course, Silver Lake Everett and Silver Lake Eatonville, are set up by somebody else. I do enjoy running the triangle course though.....to me it is a load of fun. Just setting the record straight. Dave

[mercguy]

what heat on saturday did you jump by an inch and would have won by a straightaway?

the tohatsu is way faster without a doubt and i'm glad. not saying the merc doesn't stand a chance on a .750 or bigger but anything smaller (like almost all of them) mercs can't come close.. you, meatball and troy really did your homework and deserve all your success.

I did not jump on Saturday.....anyways, if you get off your butt and TEST (have you ever?), you will be much faster!!!! Dedication and committment!!!!!! BTW, a 44XS won both heats at the Nationals........


no matter what motor is faster, the guy (or gal) that spends the most time testing and dedicated to achieving success will ALWAYS be the winner...........

PS: I don't remember you having a problem with me chasing all the 44XS's (including you) the last 5yrs and finishing at the rear of the field......

[Charlie Pater]

Per Guedo "The 302, when restricted, is the dominate motor in CSR, 25ssr and 20ssH (where torque is King) and that should be the case for the simple fact that you can go buy one today. I know a Merc won 25 this year (I loved the tears of joy at the banquet), and in a convoluted class with as many different motor/weight options you can run, the 302 is showing it's weight in gold as the motor of choice - the natural R&D, as well as the natural attrition has vaulted the 302 to that position."

I agree with you that the 302 has and is evolving as a very competitive and sometimes being the dominate motor. The reason it is now reaching parity in the CSH class is people have not worked on it as much as they have in other classes. I do believe people gave up on the 302 too early in the CSH class. The last year or two, more people have been working on the 302 in the CSH class to bring it up to parity.

[ram95]

The only reason I think the Merc gets support in the A class is that it does not threaten the top tier of OMCs[/QUOTE] Okay... so why not let someone race the Merc in A at the AX weight if they want to. What IS the problem with that?

[Ron Hill]

ram95, Good Job!

Good logical thinking, but the next step would be to let the OMC run in AXS at A weight.......then, OH MY GOD, we'd have two classes with the same rules, just different names.

BECAUSE right now, the OMC in AXS ain't got a chance!

In theory, AXS is a J Class and ASH in a Stock class.

Changing the above rules would make for four AMAZING heats of racing in SoCal.....

Maybe, the Sidewinder could run in AXS with added weight!

AS A FAMOUS RACE CAR OWNER ONCE TOLD ME, "GOD CAN'T MAKE PEOPLE EQUAL, WHAT MAKES MAN THINK HE CAN MAKE DIFFERENT MOTORS EQUAL?"

I BELIEVE IN ONE MOTOR, ONE CLASS, BUT I'VE SEEN THE MERC RUN PRETTY WELL IN A HYDRO OUT OUR WAY. THE OMC HAS NOT HAD MUCH OF A CHANCE IN AXS, THOUGH!

[ram95]

I've enjoyed reading this entire post.

Let me ask: When the Champion Hot Rod came into being, did APBA help get it running? Nope! When Kiekhaefer threw the toilet bowl (20H Converion, for you newby's ... huh??) into the mix, did he ask for help to make it run? Nope. Because the engines ran right out of the freaking box!!! Today, the Sidewinder has been a totally different story hasn't it? Like, I mean, has the design been finalized yet???

Okay.. let's jump to the Tohatsu. Back at day one: Bass Machines said let it run with 16:17 gears. Bob (the safety guru) said it runs safer with the gearfoot up near the bottom of the boat. So what's APBA do.... with the Sidewinder.. they help redesign the thing. With the Tohatsu... incredulusly they slap a rule that the gearfoot must be run DEEPER than the Bob Wartinger Test report recommends!! And, to add a total hypocrisy, APBA puts this in a Safety Rule no less. And, just for good measure the SORC imposes a 28 degree timing restriction along with a requirement that Tohatsu reed stops be installed on Boyesen reeds. Credit should be allowed to the parity comittee for allowing the Boyesen reeds. However Boyesen reeds were not designed to have reed stops installed! (no performance advantage).

So, What's happening to D in APBA? D runabout is extinct!! Except at Topo. And D hydro didn't even have eliminations at the Nats. It's dying in APBA and there is no focus on the fact.

Is the 44XS still a viable motor? You bet! But, you need to get Trident Racing or Daren Goehring to build you one, unless you think you're good enough. OR.. you can buy a RAM50 from me..., pull the rewind and go racing. I took over building the Tohatsu D motor from Bass Machines two years ago. Bass had had enough of the politics and BS. Sid Bass will continue to supply the towers, brackets, and lower units to me and to racers around the world. But, the complete engine package will come from Maine.

And, i'll close with this: APBA can impose all the hypicritical restrictions they wish, but the engine will remain available to the racing organizations that want to run the class. In essance , everyone else can kiss my ++++.

Alex

[raceright]

I've enjoyed reading this entire post.

Let me ask: When the Champion Hot Rod came into being, did APBA help get it running? Nope! When Kiekhaefer threw the toilet bowl (20H Converion, for you newby's ... huh??) into the mix, did he ask for help to make it run? Nope. Because the engines ran right out of the freaking box!!! Today, the Sidewinder has been a totally different story hasn't it? Like, I mean, has the design been finalized yet???

Okay.. let's jump to the Tohatsu. Back at day one: Bass Machines said let it run with 16:17 gears. Bob (the safety guru) said it runs safer with the gearfoot up near the bottom of the boat. So what's APBA do.... with the Sidewinder.. they help redesign the thing. With the Tohatsu... incredulusly they slap a rule that the gearfoot must be run DEEPER than the Bob Wartinger Test report recommends!! And, to add a total hypocrisy, APBA puts this in a Safety Rule no less. And, just for good measure the SORC imposes a 28 degree timing restriction along with a requirement that Tohatsu reed stops be installed on Boyesen reeds. Credit should be allowed to the parity comittee for allowing the Boyesen reeds. However Boyesen reeds were not designed to have reed stops installed! (no performance advantage).

So, What's happening to D in APBA? D runabout is extinct!! Except at Topo. And D hydro didn't even have eliminations at the Nats. It's dying in APBA and there is no focus on the fact.

Is the 44XS still a viable motor? You bet! But, you need to get Trident Racing or Daren Goehring to build you one, unless you think you're good enough. OR.. you can buy a RAM50 from me..., pull the rewind and go racing. I took over building the Tohatsu D motor from Bass Machines two years ago. Bass had had enough of the politics and BS. Sid Bass will continue to supply the towers, brackets, and lower units to me and to racers around the world. But, the complete engine package will come from Maine.

And, i'll close with this: APBA can impose all the hypicritical restrictions they wish, but the engine will remain available to the racing organizations that want to run the class. In essance , everyone else can kiss my ass.

Alex

Alex whats the matter with you don't you know ya can't speak the truth in this world any more-

[Racerkyle20]

Per Guedo "The 302, when restricted, is the dominate motor in CSR, 25ssr and 20ssH (where torque is King) and that should be the case for the simple fact that you can go buy one today. I know a Merc won 25 this year (I loved the tears of joy at the banquet), and in a convoluted class with as many different motor/weight options you can run, the 302 is showing it's weight in gold as the motor of choice - the natural R&D, as well as the natural attrition has vaulted the 302 to that position."

I agree with you that the 302 has and is evolving as a very competitive and sometimes being the dominate motor. The reason it is now reaching parity in the CSH class is people have not worked on it as much as they have in other classes. I do believe people gave up on the 302 too early in the CSH class. The last year or two, more people have been working on the 302 in the CSH class to bring it up to parity.

I see what John sees.

I personally believe the 302 is a faster motor in the west only because us in Region 10 use them week in and week out. Most of us in the west threw out the 102's years ago. Most guys in the midwest and east coast that still run 102's and have not switched to 302's because they don't have to. They tested and made their motors fast 20 years ago and they are still fast(example Joe Pater). What is their motivation to switch to a 302? Look at the A class. Sidewinder came in and should be the dominte motor from here on out. But people won't be holding on to OMC's because they're fast (like the 102's).

Look at the history of winners at nationals with 302's (if there's anymore that i'm not listing let me know):
04 or 02? OSY-JMK
07 CSH- Mike Perman
08 CSH- Mike Perman
10 CSH-JMK
10 25ssr- JMK
10 CSR- Me
11 CSR- Me
Any 20ssh's?

John Peeters, pretty sure your OSY is not a 302? not sure...

Anyway, Pretty sure that's all of them, but it's pretty clear Region 10 has figured something that everyone else has not. No one outside the west has won with 302's. My guess is we just run the hell out of them and stopped racing 102's. That CAN"T BE THE CASE ANYMORE. Somehow the 302 needs to be the C classes motor of choice for west, midwest, east, south racers. not just west.

If John decides to run his 102's in stock he is validated in doing so. Just look at nationals winners and you can determine that on your own. Me? i'll stick with my 302 still.

[14J]

I see what John sees.

I personally believe the 302 is a faster motor in the west only because us in Region 10 use them week in and week out. Most of us in the west threw out the 102's years ago. Most guys in the midwest and east coast that still run 102's and have not switched to 302's because they don't have to. They tested and made their motors fast 20 years ago and they are still fast(example Joe Pater). What is their motivation to switch to a 302? Look at the A class. Sidewinder came in and should be the dominte motor from here on out. But people won't be holding on to OMC's because they're fast (like the 102's).

Look at the history of winners at nationals with 302's (if there's anymore that i'm not listing let me know):
04 or 02? OSY-JMK
07 CSH- Mike Perman
08 CSH- Mike Perman
10 CSH-JMK
10 25ssr- JMK
10 CSR- Me
11 CSR- Me
Any 20ssh's?

John Peeters, pretty sure your OSY is not a 302? not sure...

Anyway, Pretty sure that's all of them, but it's pretty clear Region 10 has figured something that everyone else has not. No one outside the west has won with 302's. My guess is we just run the hell out of them and stopped racing 102's. That CAN"T BE THE CASE ANYMORE. Somehow the 302 needs to be the C classes motor of choice for west, midwest, east, south racers. not just west.

If John decides to run his 102's in stock he is validated in doing so. Just look at nationals winners and you can determine that on your own. Me? i'll stick with my 302 still.

As an east coaster who owns both motors I support the postion of John and Kyle on this one. These guys are simply correct in their analysis of the C yamato classes. The question now becomes do we want parity or a preference for new equipment. Regardless we need a consistant message for all classes. The conversations on this board are all over the place.

[14J]

I agree with you that the 302 has and is evolving as a very competitive and sometimes being the dominate motor. The reason it is now reaching parity in the CSH class is people have not worked on it as much as they have in other classes. I do believe people gave up on the 302 too early in the CSH class. The last year or two, more people have been working on the 302 in the CSH class to bring it up to parity.

I don't know that I agree with this. In my own camp which inlcudes Scott Clark and Scott Reed we have spent more than a couple of years on the 302 motor. The facts are simple the 2 motors will never top out at the same number. At least thats what we see. I believe any parity or disparity in the C has more to do with course layout than one's efforts.

[Charlie Pater]

I believe the real issue in our discussion relates to the viability of the CSH class in APBA. A question comes to my mind. What if the 102 was handicapped to make the 302 the dominate motor in CSH? Would that not discourage 102 owners? How many of those racers would hang up their 102s and buy a new 302? They may need to then buy more propellers and do all the work necessary to be competitive whereas they were competitive with their 102s. I think more CSH competitors would be lost by handicapping the 102 than would be gained by it.

The 302 is a great motor and I believe has more potential than many people now believe. It can be run in CSH, 20ssh, CSR, and 25ssr and be competitive in all 4 classes. I believe it is the best entry motor for someone new to Stock Outboard that has the $ to buy a one. On the other hand, for someone that wants to start racing with limited funds, a used 102 outfit may be found for less $ and that new racer has the potential to be very competitive. Seams to me we need to keep the CSH class as it is for the good of the class and the good of Stock Outboard.

Charlie

[seanp3]

[QUOTE=Racerkyle20;215918]I see what John sees.


John Peeters, pretty sure your OSY is not a 302? not sure...

QUOTE]

The motor John uses in OSY is a 302. It was purchased from Gary Pond. Travis used it as his Runabout motor

[guedo499]

Look at the history of winners at nationals with 302's (if there's anymore that i'm not listing let me know):
04 or 02? OSY-JMK
07 CSH- Mike Perman
08 CSH- Mike Perman
10 CSH-JMK
10 25ssr- JMK
10 CSR- Me
11 CSR- Me
Any 20ssh's?

John Peeters, pretty sure your OSY is not a 302? not sure...

Add:
07 20ssH - John Peeters
12 20ssH - Mike Pavlick

08 OSY was with Bob's 202 (the version more similar to the 102)
09-2012 was, as Sean said, with a 302.

[rumleyfips]

Jerry:

All is well here in the wilds on Nova Scotia thank you. And thanks for reminding me I'm old- 65 in a couple of months.

I never lost everything from the trailer: just another example of how much you can trust Leigh. I lost my helmet on the 401 when the trailer door flew open on the way to Dunnville. The trailer box came apart once ( rotted) but I wasn't carrying anything in it by that time. The spare tire fell on a customs agent foot once when he opened the trailer door. He yelled at me and then yelled louder when I accidently dropped the tool box on the same foot. Tara the wonder dog got back out of the van and went fishing at Silver Lake and I had to turn around in Fulton to get her. But: I never lost everything out of the trailer.

Silver Lake was my favorite race. I loved being on the hill Saturady night of Labour Day, drinking beer, talking racing and hearing the big block modifies run at the Syracuse Fair Grounds.

John McManus