Sidewinder report

[reed28n]

Cost curve

We have a great economy option for all drivers.... the Yamato 302. We have a very expensive optiion at $6500 for guys that really want to go fast. There is definitely room for a $4500 option.

I still believe that the off the shelf production motor should be promoted and allowed to compete at a very high level. I am not suggesting the parity be completely ignored like the J committee did with the OMC.

To encourage design innovation there is not a restriction in Stock for boat size. The 20SSH size was trial and error for years to get the boat up to where it is......

If you drop 15 lbs of motor weight going to the SW you could run a bigger boat...

[csh12M]

And the problem is that the SORC has treated BOTH Racing Outboards AND Bass Machines like a vendor instead of a Partner. Until we stop $hitting on both of these guys, it will be status quo...right into the ground.

R-19

Again, I agree but....both of these companies have been hard to have relationships with. Mistakes have been made on BOTH sides. I agree with your thought though. Let's put the past behind us and open a dialog with R.O. LLC.

Just rambling thoughts. I have no aspiration to be politically involved anymore. Just pointing out what is being learned and sold to our Racer School "New Name" members.

12M

[Matt Dagostino]

Please explain...........

And the problem is that the SORC has treated BOTH Racing Outboards AND Bass Machines like a vendor instead of a Partner. Until we stop $hitting on both of these guys, it will be status quo...right into the ground.

R-19

As a member of the SORC seems we have bent over backwards for the Sidewinder to accomadate all the requested updates in a timely manner with a minimum of resistance???? Not sure what the issue is with Bass Bro's??

Maybe you can elaborate on the 'vender vs partnership' platform.......

Matt
Region 4

[wagner-racing16-s]

How about we just take the Yamato 302 restrict it lower it. run a 2 blade and get it down to speeds of 40mph and just keep adjusting it to cover all ranges of every class. That is the most cost effective way.

[PittmanRacing]

A constructive value idea for Sidewinders

Here is a thought on the value proposition for Sidewinders, as I truly would like to see them succeed. Create a setup that really works for both A and B. This would be similar to the old days of the Hot Rod 15SS & B (I know they were different CI's), which I raced many moons ago! Same engine for both classes with carburetor/restrictor changes. Also, the Sidewinder A would then be on a more appropriately sized boat.

The fact is the Mercury J/AX is very successful. Let's not mess with it unless someone has an idea of how to make it into J/AX/A. Then we could have the Sidewinder A/B. Finally the Yamato 302SS/20SS/C. Now that is value that could grow with our drivers.

Paul

[csh2z]

There is a down side to transportable motors. Aside from whatever modifications needed in the Yamato's and Mercs which does raise the cost of each. What you are proposing is that in order for the new racer to buy quality motors he must buy new. If you really want to drive the cost of racing down we need to create quality used motors through people transitioning from one class to another. If you try to get, right now, a Mercury that can make you competitive on a national level, you may get lucky and find somebody that is quitting the class and buy his good motor or you're going to get a motor that is not as good as you'd like. The only other option is building one up from scratch and that is a crapshoot at best. What I'm suggesting is just the opposite of what you are proposing but going about it a different way. If we leave the Mercs in the J/AX classes exclusively, the kids will outgrow their motors and therefore create a continuing supply of high quality motors available for new people. When the time comes to transition from AX to A you simply sell your good motor to someone new and put that money into a new motor for yourself. Win-win. New guy gets a good motor at a reasonable price and for a minimum amount of outlay, you get the best available new product. Remember these motors will maintain a very good resale value. Moving from one class to another is not necessarily that expensive when you consider a good return on your investment.

[reed28n]

Members vote

How about we just take the Yamato 302 restrict it lower it. run a 2 blade and get it down to speeds of 40mph and just keep adjusting it to cover all ranges of every class. That is the most cost effective way.

This would have been a great idea to totally restructure the national platform like this 10 years ago. But at that time with the membership voting system and everyone oting to preserve what they own, it would have never taken off.

Now kick the can down the road to today, we have power plant options. Each class if we structure it properly has a new motor available.

1) Finalize the class structure to include those motors
2) Accomodate the racing, at least on a local level, of old motors
3) Promote a National Platform to attract more drivers.

More racers solves everything. What is the action that people are proposing to attract new folks?

Seems we have a group of really good operations guys and customer service guys. Now we need some rock star marketing guys. It is time for us all to recognize we are not good at marketing this to new people and find someone that can do it for us.

[Big Don]

We are a mess, I think most would agree. Where do we start??? We have some tuff decisions to make and it’s going to piss people off. We have to accept that fact. We are going to have to make decisions that are not popular and they will upset some. Good chance it will ruin some friendships. If you’re not willing to accept that, then I strongly suggest you not be on the SORC. We have to stop voting because of relationships, friendships, trailer box protection, vendor/supplier relationships/friendships, we have to do what we think is right for our sport.

What becomes very hard to decide is do we swing towards the new racers and getting new members or protecting what we have already. There has to be a happy medium, without each other, we are doomed.

Let’s stop talking about J/AX…we don’t control that class and I don’t see them changing from what seems to be working right now.

In just the A class alone this is what I have heard, read, been pitched, or sent to me in email. Everyone has their own ideas and they are all over the board.

Get rid of the OMC in A altogether.
Get rid of the Mercury in the A class
Make the Mercury the engine of choice
Put the Sidewinder back on probation until it reliable.
Pull the sidewinder out of A because it still does not run consistently for everyone.
Pull the sidewinder out of ASR because it does not run on runabouts like it does on hydros, make it a hydro only engine. I’m hearing it does not run well for everyone in hydros either.
Get rid of the mercury & the OMC in A and make the sidewinder the engine of choice
Get rid of all the current engine in A and restrict the 302 and get back to a 50-53 MPH A class
Make all the OMC’s the engine of choice in the J classes.
Slow the J & AX classes down and lets figure out how we get a 55 MPH ASH with the Mercury.
We were told the Sidewinder would be and engine that a new person can buy and go race. Really, some of our more knowledgeable racers are struggling to make them perform. How is a new person going to react to them. Make sidewinder figure it out before you guys do anything else.

How are we ever going to make decisions when we don’t know what we want and we will never all agree.

All I know is go back to my first paragraph….

[csh12M]

J and AX

We are a mess, I think most would agree. Where do we start??? We have some tuff decisions to make and it’s going to piss people off. We have to accept that fact. We are going to have to make decisions that are not popular and they will upset some. Good chance it will ruin some friendships. If you’re not willing to accept that, then I strongly suggest you not be on the SORC. We have to stop voting because of relationships, friendships, trailer box protection, vendor/supplier relationships/friendships, we have to do what we think is right for our sport.

What becomes very hard to decide is do we swing towards the new racers and getting new members or protecting what we have already. There has to be a happy medium, without each other, we are doomed.

Let’s stop talking about J/AX…we don’t control that class and I don’t see them changing from what seems to be working right now.

In just the A class alone this is what I have heard, read, been pitched, or sent to me in email. Everyone has their own ideas and they are all over the board.

Get rid of the OMC in A altogether.
Get rid of the Mercury in the A class
Make the Mercury the engine of choice
Put the Sidewinder back on probation until it reliable.
Pull the sidewinder out of A because it still does not run consistently for everyone.
Pull the sidewinder out of ASR because it does not run on runabouts like it does on hydros, make it a hydro only engine. I’m hearing it does not run well for everyone in hydros either.
Get rid of the mercury & the OMC in A and make the sidewinder the engine of choice
Get rid of all the current engine in A and restrict the 302 and get back to a 50-53 MPH A class
Make all the OMC’s the engine of choice in the J classes.
Slow the J & AX classes down and lets figure out how we get a 55 MPH ASH with the Mercury.
We were told the Sidewinder would be and engine that a new person can buy and go race. Really, some of our more knowledgeable racers are struggling to make them perform. How is a new person going to react to them. Make sidewinder figure it out before you guys do anything else.

How are we ever going to make decisions when we don’t know what we want and we will never all agree.

All I know is go back to my first paragraph….

I think you have to look at the J and AX aspect. It is a "big" picture, otherwise who cares. We are trying to sell to new people and achieve growth. BTW, I would not say J and AX are big success stories. Success is getting new people into the sport and allowing them to compete.

I see it more as either:

1. Committ to the Merc. as an A motor and slow down the AX class. Decide whether to keep the Sidewinder in or not (obviously slow it down)

2. Committ to the Sidewinder and try and make it the J/AX motor within the next 3-5 years.

3. Get rid of A altogether because AX has basically turned into it.

I realize all three of these options would seem radical but if you really consider the cost and growth perspective they are obvious. It would be better for all "new racers" but would be destructive to existing racers. Maybe we put a timetable on it, say three years down the road.

[Ron Hill]

WOW! Nice Post, Big Don!!!

We are a mess, I think most would agree. Where do we start??? We have some tuff decisions to make and it’s going to piss people off. We have to accept that fact. We are going to have to make decisions that are not popular and they will upset some. Good chance it will ruin some friendships. If you’re not willing to accept that, then I strongly suggest you not be on the SORC. We have to stop voting because of relationships, friendships, trailer box protection, vendor/supplier relationships/friendships, we have to do what we think is right for our sport.

What becomes very hard to decide is do we swing towards the new racers and getting new members or protecting what we have already. There has to be a happy medium, without each other, we are doomed.

Let’s stop talking about J/AX…we don’t control that class and I don’t see them changing from what seems to be working right now.

In just the A class alone this is what I have heard, read, been pitched, or sent to me in email. Everyone has their own ideas and they are all over the board.

Get rid of the OMC in A altogether.
Get rid of the Mercury in the A class
Make the Mercury the engine of choice
Put the Sidewinder back on probation until it reliable.
Pull the sidewinder out of A because it still does not run consistently for everyone.
Pull the sidewinder out of ASR because it does not run on runabouts like it does on hydros, make it a hydro only engine. I’m hearing it does not run well for everyone in hydros either.
Get rid of the mercury & the OMC in A and make the sidewinder the engine of choice
Get rid of all the current engine in A and restrict the 302 and get back to a 50-53 MPH A class
Make all the OMC’s the engine of choice in the J classes.
Slow the J & AX classes down and lets figure out how we get a 55 MPH ASH with the Mercury.
We were told the Sidewinder would be and engine that a new person can buy and go race. Really, some of our more knowledgeable racers are struggling to make them perform. How is a new person going to react to them. Make sidewinder figure it out before you guys do anything else.

How are we ever going to make decisions when we don’t know what we want and we will never all agree.

All I know is go back to my first paragraph….

I feel your pain. I have been emailing with Jeff Brewster and Fred Hauenstein on this subject. AS most people know, with Marlee Hill's help......as the "CHEERLEADER" Region 12 has more than 12 A Stock Hydros.

I currently have Tammy Dawe's two Johnson's. one Runne Evinrude, one Seattle Johnson, a Florida Johnson, Tammy's 200 CC Mod Motor and a Merc or two.......I 've lost track of how many motors that is: But, I wanted to support Marlee's effort and the rest of SoCal who are pulling to bring small boat racing back to SoCal.

I would seem to me that MAYBE there could be a logical way of establishing classes levels. I'm not about to ever race D Runabout again, but it pleases me to see it running, again...But it isn't C Hydro....25 SS Seems like a GREAT class, except there are what 10 motors in the world.....???? Make some kind of a rule that a class must have 50-100 cross the starting line in 2013, to be schedule for the 2014 Nationals. (Make a rule that encourages people to get on the water and get their friends on the water).

In SoCal, our Mercs have not really won an A Race, well maybe they did...But when our Region 12 drivers went to Region 11.....the top two were Sidewinders. Most Region 12 people didn't like that at all.

I'll also admit, everyone in Region 12...EVERYONE is off the pace to win a APBA Nationals.....

I favor, giving the Sidewinder 15 SS Hydro, and 15 SS Runabout (With B runabout fin rules).

My fear, without a clear cut rule for "A" and the OMC, Region 12 will have a bunch of 200 CC Mod Motors......I own one, it would be easy to make about 4-5 more...

Keep the Merc and "A" and make the OMC "A" the main motor. There are new gearcases available, there are 15 HP fishing motor alll over America...Steering bars, throttle hooks ups, and solid mount are available. You can build an OMC fishing motor, into a race motor for under $2,000.

[csh12M]

I feel your pain. I have been emailing with Jeff Brewster and Fred Hauenstein on this subject. AS most people know, with Marlee Hill's help......as the "CHEERLEADER" Region 12 has more than 12 A Stock Hydros.

I currently have Tammy Dawe's two Johnson's. one Runne Evinrude, one Seattle Johnson, a Florida Johnson, Tammy's 200 CC Mod Motor and a Merc or two.......I 've lost track of how many motors that is: But, I wanted to support Marlee's effort and the rest of SoCal who are pulling to bring small boat racing back to SoCal.

I would seem to me that MAYBE there could be a logical way of establishing classes levels. I'm not about to ever race D Runabout again, but it pleases me to see it running, again...But it isn't C Hydro....25 SS Seems like a GREAT class, except there are what 10 motors in the world.....???? Make some kind of a rule that a class must have 50-100 cross the starting line in 2013, to be schedule for the 2014 Nationals. (Make a rule that encourages people to get on the water and get their friends on the water).

In SoCal, our Mercs have not really won an A Race, well maybe they did...But when our Region 12 drivers went to Region 11.....the top two were Sidewinders. Most Region 12 people didn't like that at all.

I'll also admit, everyone in Region 12...EVERYONE is off the pace to win a APBA Nationals.....

I favor, giving the Sidewinder 15 SS Hydro, and 15 SS Runabout (With B runabout fin rules).

My fear, without a clear cut rule for "A" and the OMC, Region 12 will have a bunch of 200 CC Mod Motors......I own one, it would be easy to make about 4-5 more...

Keep the Merc and "A" and make the OMC "A" the main motor. There are new gearcases available, there are 15 HP fishing motor alll over America...Steering bars, throttle hooks ups, and solid mount are available. You can build an OMC fishing motor, into a race motor for under $2,000.

Would the A classes turning into 200Mod be such a bad thing? APBA still keeps it members. So what if Mod grows and Stock declines... I am not competing with the Mod category. I am competing with getting growth and "new name" racers. Look at my previous post and the value proposition for Stock and for Mod. I would contend that the way A is now it has more in common with Mod. classes than with Stock classes. To race it you have to be very committed to the building and tinkering of the engine.

[14-H]

*** 3. I also want to congratulate Donny Allen on his new record in ASH. Everybody knows the OMC can't possibly beat a Sidewinder and yet the record broken was momentarily held by a Sidewinder. That must be one special OMC! I wonder where I could buy one?

You can buy them from Andy Hansen. He is quitting and going to race Mod.

[14-H]

**** The real stumbling blocks are the knowledge and connections to accumulate the the best equipment (boats, motors, props,) and the know-how to make it all work. The Sidewinder helps to level the playing field. ***?

The Sidewinders do NOT help to level the playing field. You have to have all of the knowledge mentioned above to get the Sidewinder to run. There are only 4 in the country that run. One is owned by your brother, Richard. The other is owned by George Stillwell who could get a washing machine motor to run fast on a hydroplane. The third is owned by Bobby Austin (for those of you not familiar with Austin, ask around). And the fourth one is owned by Dan Schwartz. All of these owners have more knowledge than nearly anyone else about how to make racing engines run.

Now, let's talk about just a few that don't run. Richard Hearn had one. He sent it back. John Hoffman has one. It doesn't run and the last I heard, he was contemplating sending his back too. Brian Lauer has 3. He doesn't use them. Brian Trolian has one. He is putting his Hot Rods back together to use in B Stock next year.

Until the problems with this engine are fixed, the Sidewinder will do nothing but create problems in the Stock Category.

And, by the way, in following my mother's good advice, I have repeatedly offered to help and been ignored for years. So have a few others who actually would have some knowledge on how to make this engine run correctly.

[14-H]

Since this is a Sidewinder Report thread..

Since this is a Sidewinder report thread, I probably should post my own Sidewinder update. I raced one of these for the first time at Big Rapids because Brian Trolian was injured and could not race. So, I ran Brian's BSR with his Sidewinder engine.

1) I had a very difficult time getting the boat on plane. This was due to the fact that the engine would begin to die at high RPM as the boat was about to plane off. However, I quickly figured out that, by cracking the throttle, the engine would stop its loss of power and, in fact, gain power. In order to plane off for my 4 heats of BSR, I had to crack the throttle once the engine started to die.

2) When I went into the first turn and rolled the boat up, the engine would die again. It was a good thing that there were only 4 boats in the heat since I would have likely been run over had there been a pack of boats behind me. However, the same cure for the planing problem worked here too. I quickly learned to anticipate the choking out or dying problem in the corner and compensated for it by cracking the throttle. Of course, this is not good for trying to win the heat.

3) At the conclusion of the races, I touched the flywheel and crank case of the engine. I routinely do this with my Hot Rods because I can tell by the "feel" if the crankcase is not set up correctly by how much heat is retained in the engine after it stops. A good Hot Rod is a good one because the front end of the engine is cool. If the front end is cool, so is the flywheel. Well, Brian's Sidewinder flywheel and crank case were so hot that I could not touch them. This represents a MAJOR problem in the set up of this front end. I have no idea what the particular problem is that is causing this except to know that there is a problem and it is a big one. The engine will NEVER run right as long as this problem exists. That means, no matter what carburetor, intake manifold or sleeve or other device you put on this engine, it is not going to run correctly until this front end problem is corrected.

BTW: I advised the Sidewinder folks nearly 2 years ago that I suspected a serious problem with the front end of this engine without even having the benefit of actually running the engine-- just from my observing the engine perform. I received no response.

If these engines ran correctly, I would own at least two of them. Until then, I will keep running my Hot Rods and Mercury.

[Big Don]

Dean maybe I was not real clear in the way I said it.

Yes we have to look at the J classes, but the SORC is NOT going to change the way they run the J classes so WE (SORC) need to adapt to them IF we want our A class to be the next step with one of the same engines. Do you really think in the next 3-5 years we could convince them to get rid of the current structure in J?? Not hardly, and if you really think that is possible I’m all ears and willing to listen, I don’t see it happening. I’m not trying to argue with you (even though it is fun at times to push your buttons), I like a lot of what you have posted I just think us trying to change them if futile.